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Diesel Engines Running Underloaded / Lube Problems?

Discussion in 'Engines' started by C4ENG, Jun 13, 2012.

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  1. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    ADMIN EDIT: The following posts were split from the 'Dockwise Loading' thread because they fell off the ship. :rolleyes:

    Most Trinity yachts have the 3512 Cat for main propulsion. 1700 to 1800 rpm would be the ideal speed for the 80% load factor the manufactures like to see the motors to be used at for the majority of run time. Because of the fuel cappacity, a Trinity yacht would have to cross at 1200 1300 rpm some where around 50% or less load on the mains for almost 2 weeks straight.

    At 80% load your cylinder tempetures are ideal for burning the most part of the fuel while keeping it from being introduced into the oil through blow by. Blow by is also reduced with the 80% load as the ideal cylinder tempetures cause the piston rings and cylinder linings to fit best with the caculated heat expansion.

    So what happens to these motors when you are introducing unburned fuel to the oil for 2 weeks straight? The fuel contains sulfur and when the sulfur meets condensation (water) it produces sulfuric acid and causes localized internal pitting and it cost a lot of money and time to correct it. Then all of a sudden Dockwise looks a little less expensive.
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    While running 80% load would be ideal......running at less wouldn't have catastrophic effects as described, and the 3512's computers do keep them running pretty clean at lower RPM's, albeit not as ideal as 80% load. There are very few boats that run at 80% load most of the time. Look at all of the push boats on the Mississippi and Tennessee rivers, they rarely run at 80% load. Once they get the barges moving, going downriver, they run a lot less than 80% load.......
    The engines won't pit when they're running under the circumstances, because they are running and 190 degrees and there is no condensation in them when they're running for 2 weeks straight at operating temp.
  3. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    Unfortuantely these are consequences that do destroy the motors. Sport fish yachts receive a great deal of this issue. The vessel requires a high HP motors to get the vessel on plane and out to the fishing hole quickly at 80% load. Then the rest of the day is spent trolling at low idle which cause a lot of fuel to be introduced into the oil. Hot days followed by cool evenings, all motors produce condensation. Then, from the sulfric acid, the engines develope corrosion pits on the cylinder linings, crank bearings and all sorts of places that are not good. Mind you this does not happen on one trip, however it does not take long.
    Engine manufactures are looking for answers as they deal with this warranty issue often on the sport fish yachts.

    Some ways the sulfuric acid build up is combated is by the TBN oil additive. A good engineer should be checking the TBN numbers with a test kit as the additive depletes itself doing its job nutralizing the acid. Changing the oil acording to test results and not necessarily hours rarely happens. Also by trying to place appropriately rated engines for the vessel that are for the most part loaded.

    Do not confuse water jacket tempetures 190f with cylinder opperating tempetures which are closer to 1100-1200F under high load. That 1200F is what burns the fuel and keeps the rings and cylinders tight from minimal blow by and this can only be attained at load. Sitting at the dock you can warm up an engine to 190F yet your cylinders are firing at like 400F building carbon on your valves and throwing around all that acid inside. This is what MTU has taught me while doing there training courses.
  4. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    So chief, if the combustion temperature is 400*F what do you suppose the charge air temperature is just before injection?

    You might want to review your class notes before posting some of this stuff. because some readers might believe it is true.
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I understand all of this and it is good info. However, during a transatlantic crossing where the engines are never shut down, except maybe briefly to check oil level, there is no condensation that will form, so that is not a concern. When you get to the otherside, you're going to do oil changes within hours or days. I've worked on several megayachts with 3512's, about a decade ago, and they rarely cruised at 80% load.

    I was the test Captain for the MAN common rails (2nd set in the United States) where MAN of North America did 7 days of seatrials in order to setup their fuel curves and computer parameters for the Common Rails. Which is a different story altogether.
  6. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    Something that came to my mind was the fact that I never hear about the acid issues in light loaded generators. It is usually about cylinder glazing being the most talked about issue there. By the way, thanks for posting the cool pics of the loading.

    Hey Lamont, have a cup of shut the &%8! up, I don't care about your charge air temps.
  7. Yacht News

    Yacht News YF News Editor

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    Easy guys, keep it professional!
  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    I guess that about sums up both your personal and professional standards. Wouldn't it have been more productive to the membership if you would just stick to the topic, answer the very reasonable question, and share some of what you profess to know about engine operations?

    If you are going to post scare mongering myths and state things like combustion temperatures it would behoove you to at least be able to support your statements and at the very least provide real information to support what you claim is "real" data concerning combustion chamber conditions.

    Let me sharpen the stick a bit; If you are convinced that the combustion temperature is 400*F perhaps you would tell us what the temperature of the charge air is in the cylinder at the start of injection. While you are at it, what do you believe (because it is glaringly apparent you don't know) is the ignition temperature of diesel fuel?
  9. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    Sorry, I get a bit intense sometimes. I should had put a smiley face or something:D
  10. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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  11. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    To everyone posting in this thread, please be nice. There is no reason to antagonize. Some of you are already in enough agony. :D
  12. Yachtjocky

    Yachtjocky Senior Member

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    temps

    I would suggest that you do learn about charge air temps as any real "marine engineer" and in particular those who have spent their time obtaining combined diesel / steam un-limited Chief Engineers licenses will tell you that those temps are 'kinda' important.

    Reading your posts I did wonder if you were indeed an engineer but then noticed your spelling of the word "tempetures" and realized that only a guy who has spent years gaining knowledge of how engines work and in particular watching all of those pressure and "Temperature" gauges did not have time to learn how to spell on that week long course at MAN !. :D
  13. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    1: You shouldn't have posted nonsense to begin with.

    2: You should have responded to a reasonable question with information to support your statements regarding cylinder conditions.

    3: You should stick to the topic, particularly if it is one you started.

    4: You should check your "facts" before publishing them.

    5: If you are going to give advice about diesel engine operations in this forum you had better do your homework first. Don't bring a noodle to a knife fight when you get poked for posting BS.

    Your reaction to being called out for posting nonsense is why people are afraid to ask questions here. No one gets nailed for asking even the most basic newbie question but when someone comes along and pretends to be an expert while posting complete nonsense it tends to poison the well.
  14. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    Opps.. you got me. I had a fact wrong.
    No load diesel engine cylinder temps should be higher than 400F, or you have a problem ie stuck valve, broken ring, something.
    Healthy cylinder temp range with no load is 650F to 800F.
    I stand corrected.

    Does charge air have anything to do with your aftercooler temperature? I always wondered that..:rolleyes:

    Maybe you guys could help supply some facts for others to learn with instead of just pointing out mistakes unintentionally made.
  15. Yachtjocky

    Yachtjocky Senior Member

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    I wonder

    C4ENG,

    "Does charge air have anything to do with your aftercooler temperature? I always wondered that.."

    Asking a question like that makes me wonder if you know how a diesel engine works. Besides checking your facts think very carefully about your question before posting.

    ...a little hint, do you have any idea what goes through your aftercooler ? :cool:
  16. captholli

    captholli Senior Member

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    Hey Bill, Watch out for those pesky Helicopter pilots as they'll cost you your job!!
    C4eng/ learn to use spell check for Pete's sake! Gosh dern ultra maroon!
    (did I spell that right?)
  17. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Where did you get those numbers?
  18. Yachtjocky

    Yachtjocky Senior Member

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    numbers

    not sure but he probably stayed in a Holiday Inn last night :D
  19. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    This is really sad. C4ENG has been expertly corrected. Is it necessary to continue? PLEASE... let it go.
  20. C4ENG

    C4ENG Senior Member

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    I will tell you exactly what I did. I called a friend of mine that works for a leading marine diesel engine repair company in S Florida and asked him what temperatures we should find in the cylinders.

    He does this every day. I trust what he says. Me, on the other hand, I forget small facts some times, but I do know where to find them when I need them.
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