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Autopilot Feedback And Sensitivity

Discussion in 'Electronics' started by DOCKMASTER, Jul 31, 2024.

  1. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    I have a Simrad AP28 AP tied into my full Simrad electronics suite. When I’m cruising the AP continuously makes very small rudder adjustments about every 1 second. These are usually 1 degree or so as shown on the rudder indicator. When I’m in nice smooth water which is relatively often, I feel the stern continuously walking a bit as the AP does this. I’ve been told this is normal and the AP needs to do this to get feedback. Does that sound right? I’m thinking the sensitivity may be set too tight and it is trying to constantly correct to hold too tight of a course. I’m not in any type of area or cruising condition where I need the AP to hold a super tight course. For my liking I don’t like the feel of this when cruising and seems like it is unnecessarily working the AP pump and associated equipment. Everything else works so well I didn’t want to start adjusting settings without getting some info to see if what I’m experiencing is just normal or not. Thanks in advance for any input.
    Scallywag likes this.
  2. MBevins

    MBevins Senior Member

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    I would agree with you, the sensitivity is to high, but honestly it's been years since I played with my setup so hopefully someone will chime in with the details.
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  3. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    I went through every page of the manual and played around with it yesterday. There is a high and low rudder response that automatically shifts between the two based on speed. At lower speeds it is in high, and at 10 knots it shifts to low. This was working as it should. I did reduce the speed setting so it shifts to low at a slower speed but that doesn’t address my issue at higher cruising speeds. I cannot find any other response or sensitivity settings. I think this may be a normal feedback operation as was suggested to me. I’ll give Simrad tech support a call next week to see what they have to say.
  4. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Your looking for the manual response setting.
    I'll get back to my desk tonight and update ya tonight.
  5. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Question for my notes,, when you commissioned the AP, after you turned the boat in circles to setup the compass,, you let the AP go thru a checkout and first learning cycle,, was it a calm day? And the routeen completed with no errors?
  6. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Agreed, I also wouldn't like that, and I think that there must be a way to correct that behavior.
    But I'm afraid I can't be specific because I'm not familiar with Simrad APs.
    In Furunos for instance, I'm pretty sure that there's a specific setting for addressing this condition.
    IIRC, it's buried inside the so called "technician mode", which is supposed to access those parameters that should be fine tuned upon commissioning, and then never touched again.
    Anyway, the way Furuno call this parameter is "rudder dead band", and it's specifically meant to reduce rudder hunting.
    It does that by defining a course deviation in degrees which the AP consider a dead band, making course corrections only when the course deviation exceeds that limit.
    It can be set from zero to plus/minus a few degrees (3, as I recall), in steps of 0.5 degree.

    If you are experiencing rudder hunting even when cruising in calm waters, and with the boat keeping a straight course, I suppose that even a very narrow dead band (say +/- half a degree, or one degree max) should be enough to cure the problem.
    But as I said, I can't tell you how to set that on Simrad APs - and neither if it's possible at all, though I'd expect all APs to allow this type of tuning, in principle...
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    There is a way to change the response rate, but I can't remember the exact sequence to get to it. I believe the autopilot has to be in auto mode, then you press menu twice really quickly, that gets you to a menu where you can change the response rate.
  8. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    that was quite awhile ago but I don’t recall.any issues doing the setup.
  9. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    I did find the lo and his response rates. It is in low response while cruising so that’s not the culprit.
  10. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    No you can change the response RATE, not between low and high.....that's done by hitting auto twice.......You have to get into the second menu in order to do it.......I think autopilot needs to be in auto mode (might be in standby, it's been a while), then hit menu quickly twice, should bring you into a setup menu......in there.

    "To adjust the response level of the autopilot, access the Autopilot Settings menu, locate the Response Level option, and select the desired level based on your vessel's handling characteristics and sea conditions."

    See page 21 "RESPONSE ADJUST"
    ap28opman.pdf (psicompany.com)
  11. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    I believe response rate is a much more basic parameter, mostly meant to adapt the AP reactivity to sea state.
    What DM is experiencing, as I understand, is what is typically referred to as rudder hunting, and can only be avoided by setting a dead band.
    Which can be very narrow (like half a degree), but if there's none at all, THAT is the culprit of rudder constantly hunting back and forth, not the response rate.
    Mind, that can well be a dealer calibration, to be done upon commissioning - not sure of how it works on Simrad APs.
    @DM: looking forward to hearing what Simrad tech support will tell you, after you'll talk to them.
  12. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    In the old days it was called Gain.
    Now Response.
    And other fine tune settings.

    Attached are pages from my AP28 manual.

    Auto high / low means the two different, preset responses settings can be used pending hull speed.
    Each of these two (High / Low) settings contain it's own response (gain) parameter. Auto, then 1 thru 9.
    You can manually change these values to improve over the auto settings.

    I had an AP28 / AC20 on our Bertram for many years. Drew a perfect straight line.

    Free PDF readers don't edit or cut/paste. Sorry not pretty & includes snailbote stuff.

    Attached Files:

  13. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    If the response rate is too high, the autopilot will do EXACTLY what the OP is experiencing because it's over steering. Over steers one way, over shoots the degree it's supposed to be at, oversteers back the other way, over shooting the compass the degree it's supposed to be at, and on and on...... I know what I speak and I posted the correct link with the page number in the SIMRAD owners manual to fix his problem.
  14. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Thank you Capt J . I don’t know how I missed this when I read through the manual several times. I’ll get into this screen today and see what it is set at.
  15. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Speaking of AP setup, how good is Simrad Virtual Rudder feedback vs a physical rudder position sensor ?

    my new AP has VRF has default and i m wondering if installing a sensor would make improve results.
  16. MBevins

    MBevins Senior Member

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    I don't see how a virtual set-up could be as good or better than a real wired unit.
  17. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Hard wired feedback is preferred.
    The AP computer knows where the rudders are and how much rudder to apply.
    The AP computer knows where the rudders are and knows when to stop,, before the rudders and/or cylinders hit their travel stop.
    I think it is faster.
    I always felt Virtual Rudder was an emergency mode.
  18. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    I found the setting. It was on the factory default of 4. I actually expected to find a higher setting. I dropped it all the way down to the lowest setting of 1 and will see how that does next time I’m out.

    In my manual version, it’s on page 15 and buried in the sailboat wind settings section and that’s why I missed it.

    Thanks again all!
  19. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I missed your post with the link.
    Yes, to much response (gain) will make S curves.
    Reducing the response a notch may help this.
    Reducing to much can also cause more hunting of the base line.

    But there will always be a lil wonder and rudder movement (dead band).
    It's how APs work.
    There is always a micro adjustment for the AP to make.
    There is always a micro adjustment that bumps the rudders.

    There are other adjustment to make (counter rudder, trim) including slowing down the pump flow.
    Some pumps allow this.

    Question; Any slop in the rudder feedback linkage?
  20. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I installed a physical Simrad rudder feedback sensor (N2K) on my new Simrad and tried it for the first time tonight. What a difference. The boat tracks straight whereas without it using the Virtual Rudder Feedback, it was all over the place. I don’t even know why Simrad bothers with the virtual feedback.

    it was worth the hassle of running the N2K backbone all the way to the stern.
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