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Arsenal Ship, USN

Discussion in 'YachtForums Yacht Club' started by brian eiland, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    I recall seeing a lot of promotions about this new concept ship, an 'Arsenal Ship', that would be loaded with a variety of vertical launched missiles capable of attacking other ships, land targets, and even missiles being launched from an enemy's land sites.
    Arsenal ship - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Uss Zumwalt,ps.jpg

    The idea went thru a number of changes as it progressed thru various design and funding considerations.
    SC-21 (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Zumwalt-class destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    etc.
    Until finally it has come down to just 3 ships being built, now designated the DD 1000
    DDG 1000 Zumwalt Class - Multimission Destroyer - Naval Technology

    Technology
    ....electric propulsion, reverse wave piercing bow, small crew

    What brought this to my mind to look up the status of these 'arsenal ship projects', was the recent anouncement by Vice President Biden to put more of those anti-missiles up in Alaska....those anti-missilies that have not even proven themselves to work.

    I really thought it was a GREAT idea to station a missile launching ship somewhat nearby the coast of a rogue nation and catch any missiles launched from the nation against another, catch those missles on their way up,....much easier than trying to catch them head on.

    More specifically in the case of N Korea, wouldn't it be much more effective deployment tactically (proven), and much more cost effective method to station one, two, or three such ships on a rotating deployment in the Sea of Japan to simply fire a few missiles right up the tail pipies of anything N Korea could launch??
  2. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Actually I would have to think it would be much easier to determine the trajectory and intercept a missile heading towards you than to try an catch one after it's been launched, from near where it was launched. Plus it would eliminate any denials of the intended target.
  3. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Just look at many of the air-to-air missle technologies,....they don't attempt any 'trajectory determination' or trajectory anticipation. They go for the heat signal from the tailpipe....much easier.
  4. Opcn

    Opcn Senior Member

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    Air to air missiles are what you shoot at airplanes. If you are shooting down another missile you have to look at the trajectory because you will never catch up to it, you always have to intercept it.

    North Korea isn't the only country in the region. My guess is that China will care if we start setting out more ships that are designed to destroy sea and land targets, especially relevant given the recent tension over the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands.

    There have been a number of successful tests of our missile defense shield missiles, fortunately they haven't been tested in a real life or death situation, and hopefully they never will.

    As an Alaskan, living in the only American city with over 10,000 residents that the North Koreans might be able to strike I'm kinda for this.

    Also, this should probably be in yacht club, since it isn't yacht related really.
  5. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

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    The thread has been moved.
  6. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Smaller. lighter, hi-speed interceptors are the basis for air-to-air technology. Yes you can catch them, actually easier.


    Technical Aspects of Ballistic Missile Defense
    In the early seconds of boost, an ICBM is vulnerable to a command-detonated mine adjacent to the site or to a rocket-propelled grenade. Even short-burning Scuds could be destroyed by small homing interceptors launched by radio from as much as 50 km distance from the launch site. Normal ICBMs would be vulnerable in boost phase to ground-based interceptors (GBI) (or sea-based interceptors) from anywhere within a region of about 1000 km of the launch site. Such an interceptor would be launched by command on the basis of DSP data, without there ever having been a radar detection of the ICBM. Fitted with a sensor capable of detecting the missile flame, it could direct its limited field of view in the direction commanded according to the data from DSP, and accelerate toward a predicted intercept point. The prediction would need continued refinement, by observation from the interceptor of the current position of the ICBM booster.

    Because of the ocean area east and north of North Korea, North Korean ICBMs aimed at the United States are an ideal target for ground- or sea-based boost-phase intercept. Specifically, it should be possible to use an interceptor of the same gross launch weight as the GBI of the NMD program (about 14 tons, with 12.5 tons of solid fuel) to boost the kill vehicle (of perhaps 60 kg mass and containing some 15 kg of liquid fuel) to a speed similar to that of the ICBM-- 7 km/s, but with larger engines relative to the mass, so it will reach its final speed more rapidly. A simple calculation shows that the sea-based interceptor could be deployed as much as 2100 km downrange from the launch site and still be able to catch the ICBM while it is still burning.



    Name one,...and that one had to be 'staged'.
  7. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Rim Drive Electric Propulsion

    Have a look at this SeaJet Demonstration Project

    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/75536-post41.html

    ...certainly looks like some of these Zumwalt projects, reverse bows, electric propulsion, rim drive props
  8. Opcn

    Opcn Senior Member

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    It's using the heat signature and other visual data to establish where the launching missile will be and get there at the same time. It's not just heading straight for it. And yes, it is easier to intercept it before it gets started, but again, China isn't going to want us to park these too close, not while they are trying to establish in the south china sea like they are.

    The DPRNK isn't going to attack us. A great fuss is made about how they aren't a rational actor, but you really need to analyze the decisions that are being made from the perspective of the people making the decisions. While the world of North Korea is a hell on earth for the vast majority of the people those who are in charge and making decisions are actually quite pampered. They know if they attacked us that they would lose that. Mild agitation and the occasional pot shot at some South Koreans satisfies the troops and get's them more cooperation. But they would gain nothing but their own downfall from starting a full scale war with the west, and they know it.
  9. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Likely true, they won't be too happy with any of our deployments in Asia. But that truly is international waters.
    The Sea of Japan

    The situation in the South China Sea is a bit different. China has maintained for 100's of years that all of the Spratley Islands in the South China Sea are theirs,...even though many of them are no-were near the Chinese mainland.
    File:Schina sea 88.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I truly fear any big energy discovery in the South China Sea as it will invariably result in a BIG conflict of interest between a number of countries that claim some portion of the Spratleys, and with the USA as their protector.


    I think you are probably correct, and I certainly hope so.
  10. alloyed2sea

    alloyed2sea Moderator

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  11. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Interesting presentation there but not very convincing at all. For that land based missiles to hit a small spot on the ocean would be a problem in both accuracy and time. And I'm sure we have BIG capabilities against such an attack from the sky. (I've been away from this technology way too long to know current capabilities).

    None of those videos is very convincing. And this wording from the third reference likely rings true:
    And there’s also the difference in missions between the SS-20 and the DF-21D. While the SS-20 was designed to attack NATO forces with nuclear weapons, the DF-21D’s mission is to attack moving ocean going surface vessels. If the SS-20’s warhead was off target, the blast of its nuclear payload would still cause tremendous damage. The DF-21D would need to overcome presumed U.S. or allied missile defense systems and strike its target with accuracy. A miss of just a few feet could cause a large wave in the Pacific, but not much else.

    Personally on board the carrier I'd be more concerned with an Exocet type weapon, maybe a more modern version:
    USS Stark (FFG-31) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Sunburn - Iran's Awesome Nuclear Anti-Ship Missile


    I did notice that in the second video they spoke to the need of additional 'sensory satellites needed to be launched to help their missile find its 'small spot' target. This would provide an early warning that a possible attack was coming, unlike the case with the Exocet type weapon that provides VERY little warning.
  12. brian eiland

    brian eiland Senior Member

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    Natuna Islands Gas

    Interestingly in that same video they talk about if or when a large energy source is found. There already has been a large energy find b, possibly the world's largest natural gas find off the Spratly Islands of Natuna

    The Thinker: Caution Over Natuna | The Jakarta Globe
    “The Indonesians noticed to their surprise that the Chinese claim line was marked between the Natuna Islands of Indonesia and a gas-bearing area located 250 kilometers to the northeast of it, which lies within the limit of the Exclusive Economic Zone of 320 kilometers claimed by Indonesia, thereby raising the suspicion that China probably looked upon this gas-bearing area also as historically belonging to it even though it had never claimed it in the past before the discovery of gas.”

    http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=3701
    "The Natuna's natural gas reserves are among the largest in the world, estimated at 210 trillion cubic feet"

    The major problem with this huge find is that the gas comes out about 75 CO2. You can't just flare this off to our atmosphere as you would likely create 'nuclear winter' around the world. So you would likely have to construct GIANT platforms offshore with BIG compressions to pump the CO2 back into the ground. VERY expensive project. I was working over in Singapore when they tried to put together a consortium of big majors to tackle this project....just didn't happen. And likely the reason the Chinese have yet to 'enforce' their demands yet. But I worry about the future.
  13. alloyed2sea

    alloyed2sea Moderator

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    Sizzler

    And we not talking sirloin:
    U.S. Can't Stop Chinese Missile; No Tests 'Til 2014 | Danger Room | Wired.com
    True dat - only these guys have been going to MIT, eh?

    AEGIS ATBM caps are theoretical, no?

    Something worse actually:
    HYPERSONIC CRUISE MISSILES:
    PLA Cruise Missiles / PLA Air - Surface Missiles
    Hypersonic missiles could challenge U.S. naval supremacy ? Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion
    PLA Cruise Missiles / PLA Air - Surface Missiles
    Russia, China, and America’s Hypersonic Missile Race | Flashpoints
    "For their part the Chinese have reportedly showed significant interest in HCV technology, with research and development work occurring at a number of centers, including the Qian Xuesen National Engineering Science Experiment Base in Beijing’s Huairou district. News emerged in 2007 — three years after the launch of the X-51A program — that Chinese scientists were planning to test scramjet models capable of reaching Mach 5.6 speed at a new wind tunnel in Beijing. According to Chinese media earlier this year, Chinese scientists may also have built a wind tunnel capable of testing supersonic devices at Mach 9."​

    Things like this hardly ever happen of course, only think I'd keep my life preserver on during any "new" Cuban missile crisis, eh?

    Agreed, have always had my doubts about targetting a moving object with essentially ICBMs.
    BOTTOMLINE: Hypersonic, supersonic, seaskimming, Exocet "pop-up" trajectories, whatever,..., 500 incoming of these bad boys mean only one thing, sadly.
    Cheers!
    -Eric
    (ofcourseiffinyougottadodatigottadodis)
    PS - Did I mention Russian provided rocket "Shkval "torpedoes?
    Russian Torpedo Rocket ! - YouTube

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