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Anyone help explain this Windlass Breaker?

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by Prospective, Apr 11, 2017.

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  1. Prospective

    Prospective Senior Member

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    I have a lewmar Concept 2. This is the breaker I removed. Reason being it's giant and takes up a lot of space on my bulkhead. I am doing a major reconfigure of the DC battery distribution and plan was to simply replace it with a more compact Bussman style BlueSea DC breaker of the same rating (150amp). But once I removed it, in addition to the heavy 1/0 cable I was expecting, I found a lighter guauge positve attached to a terminal marked "C" and a ground going to a common ground. It is not easy for me to trace these but am assuming it goes to the windlass controller or switch, etc. Based on some research, the breaker appears to be an airpax/heinemann GJ1 and the "c" terminal appears to be a "monitoring shunt" terminal. But the description of it doesn't totally make sense to me from the literature I can find.

    Bottom line question is, can I use the new Bussman breaker?? If so, what should I do with this smaller lead? Can I put a ring terminal on it and piggy back it onto the load side of the bussman breaker along with the 1/0 lead to the windlass. Or should I do something else with it? The only literature I can find on my windlass doesn't actually show this breaker style. It shows a bussman style like what I want to use so I'm a bit puzzled. I think this was something Ocean did custom. Hoping one of you folks has some experience with this and can help.
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    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 11, 2017
  2. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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  3. Prospective

    Prospective Senior Member

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  4. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    I interpret the shut to go to a meter expressing current draw of the windless in either amps or percentage of full load current depending on the meter. "Since the shunt output is low voltage, light-gauge wiring can be used from shunt to meter. Indication may be displayed in percent, watts, safe/danger or other dial calibrations."
    Do you have a % meter somewhere for the windlass or was the shunt ever even connected to anything ?

    More importantly is the time delay and load carrying capability of the Eaton breaker.
    I did not look at any of the Bussman line of breakers so I can't tell you how they compare but it looks to me like the Eaton breaker you have is designed for a motor load both for the inrush and the variable, heavy load that you would expect to pull a boat against the wind or current.

    If the Bussman breaker is cheap enough, maybe you want to take a chance but the first mate will tire quickly running from the bow to the breaker to reset it.
  5. Prospective

    Prospective Senior Member

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    Ches, thanks. I don't have any meter anywhere. The shunt terminal was connected with a 2 conductor cable and the ground was connected to a common ground. That's why I'm confused, the description doesn't seem to match my application.

    As for the rating on the bussman. It's actually a BlueSea 187 Series (I think made by Bussman). Here's a link with the time/delay curve https://www.bluesea.com/products/7148/187-Series_Circuit_Breaker_-_Surface_Mount_150A

    I think it's suitable and the install literature I can find on line for a Concept 2 shows this exact breaker. So I can't figure out why Ocean did what appears to be a customized install and what purpose this shunt serves.
  6. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    I see the "C" termination is a spade connection on the bottom of the breaker. You said it was " a lighter gauge positive" connected there. Does that mean you tested the "C" wire and found 12 volts or does that mean it is just a red or any color other than black ?
    This would be good to know if it had a constant 12 volts on it.

    Sometimes a shunt is used to trip a breaker remotely. This would have nothing to do with a meter or the info in the link. Probably the breaker you have predates the info in the link.
    Is it possible the windless has a safety limit, like on a hoist, that trips the breaker if you wind it up too tight ?

    You need to trace the wires and find the other end.
    I'd look at the windless termination first just in case the is a limit, if not, then you need to trace the cables. Easier said than done, I'm sure.
    I think Home Cheapo sells a tracer that you can put a tone on the conductor and trace it that way too.
    I have traced wires this way but with mixed results. If the cable is spliced somewhere weird, like above the head liner, to another wire or three, it can send you to the nut house.
  7. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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    Another thought, is the "C" terminal hot ( 12 volts ) when the breaker is connected to the # 1/0 cables.
    In other words does the 1/0, when energized, make the "C" termination hot ?
  8. Prospective

    Prospective Senior Member

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    Ches, thanks for taking an interest in this. To address your questions...

    "Does that mean you tested the "C" wire and found 12 volts or does that mean it is just a red or any color other than black ?"

    -NO, I didn't test it. This was just an assumption on my part that could be wrong.

    "Sometimes a shunt is used to trip a breaker remotely. This would have nothing to do with a meter or the info in the link. Probably the breaker you have predates the info in the link.
    Is it possible the windless has a safety limit, like on a hoist, that trips the breaker if you wind it up too tight ?"

    That does make some sense to me. In my research I found this site which references Ocean Yachts Windlass Breakers http://cmsquick.com/prod_24_AP_218.html about midway down the page. Then at the bottom of the page it describes something called a "shunt trip". I copied that text below:
    "The shunt trip is designed for controlling two separate loads with one assembly. The control is established by providing overload protection for the critical load. When the current through this load becomes excessive and reaches the trip point, the protector will open and remove power from both loads simultaneously. The total current rating of both loads must not exceed the maximum contact rating."
  9. 30West

    30West Member

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    Could this have anything to do with two sets of switches, on the bow and helm? Maybe protection from running the two sets in opposite direction? I assumed that would just trip my breaker, but not entirely sure.

    Is the windlass breaker hot-wired to the battery? I don't think it would be under the main DC breaker, and it might need extra load protection. Is this an auto-reset breaker?
  10. chesapeake46

    chesapeake46 Senior Member

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  11. wdrzal

    wdrzal Senior Member

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    Shunt Trip

    Some times it is advantageous to turn a breaker off from a remote location. To facilitate this task, an accessory called a shunt trip feature is installed by the manufacture inside of the breaker. This device consists of an electro-magnetic trip coil that is connected in series with an external field wired switch. When the switch contacts are closed, power is passed to the shunt trip coil causing the breaker’s mechanical latch to move to the open position. Re-closing the breaker is done by physically going to the breaker and manually moving the operating handle to the on-closed position.

    One would need to look at a complete wiring diagram to verify the shunts intended purpose as there ae many reasons for a shunt to be used . Does your winch have a Emergency stop button ?
  12. Prospective

    Prospective Senior Member

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    Thanks for the replies. There is no emergency stop button. I do have both bridge and bow controls. As of right now I have the heavy leads connected to the new breaker and the windlass appears to function normally. I am going to continue researching to see if I can figure this out. In the mean time the shunt leads are taped off in the engine room and I'll keep the old breaker just in case.
  13. 30West

    30West Member

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    Last night I re-sealed my deck switches. One isn't working right, can't raise the anchor, new ones are on order. I tried the bridge windlass switches, which didn't work. I had the DC main breaker off, I turned it on, and the bridge switches worked. There must be a relay in there somewhere, maybe the windlass breaker also contains a relay.