Advice on - Californian 48 & 45, Ocean 48, Viking 44

well, these Vikings, Oceans and Californians are decent boats, dont' forget that generally speaking on 20 year old boats tyhe maintenance and upgrades are as important if not more as initial quality.

as to the DD, i'm not sure i see what the problem is. like most DD the 671 is a good egine, parts are cheap and easy to get, and they wil usually get you home... The problem, and probably what caused you concern, is that some have been pushed a little too far up the HP/CID scale drastically reducing their TBO.

without knowing the HP rating, it's hard to say... with diesel, once you start flirting with the 1/1 CID-HP ratio, you're reducing life expectancy.

how they were used is also important. typically sportfish are harder on engines since they are often pushed harder by the owners.

watching how they behave on a cold start (how much smoke, how long, how much hunting, how much cranking) will give you a reasonable idea of their conditions and decide if worth surveying. The surveyor will be able to borescope the cyl. and get a good idea of wear.

one critical thing on initial sea trial (before survey) is to see if they turn rated RPM at WOT. IF they dont, it means the boat is likley to be overpropped and that will drastically reduce life expectancy.

the other thing about DD is that they're not as efficient as 4 cycles, but to many their ruggedness makes up for a few GPH.

on a DD for instance, you dont' have an injection pump.. the injectors are creating the high pressure, so you'll never get stuck due to an (expensive) injection pump.

I'm sure you will get alot of responses here.

I have a pair of 671TIs.

The Detroits are 2 strokes compared to modern 4 strokes and are no longer in production. They are less fuel efficient (by how much is debatable) and IMO that puts them out of favor.

They are lower tech than modern diesels and depending on your perspective, IMO more reliable. They are basically bullet-proof. They really only need air and fuel to run and they are relatively easy to rebuild. Since there were quite alot made, there is no problem obtaining parts. They are heavy and therefore those boats tend to be somewhat slower than similar models powered differently.

Living with them is easy if you accept a few things. First, they are messy. I am always chasing little oil weeps. Second, they don't like to start when they are very cold so if the temps drop to the 40s or less, block heaters are a must. Some say they smoke alot, but I think mine don't smoke any more than other, newer engines. They smoke when they start (from cold) and don't when they are warm.

I used to berth between a big SeaRay with Cummins and a Riviera with Volvos. All I can say is that they smoked the same if not more than mine and they were occaisionally down with computer/electronic issues that older technology does not have.

The only other thing I would add is that you are right, the market is in the tank and is likely to get worse. I think there are tremendous values out there right now, but I wouldn't rule out even lower prices next year.

Good Luck.

Hi,

A quick and cheap estimation of the engine general condition can be done by opening the air boxes ( those oval type panels in the side with a single bolt holding them on) and looking through the Inlet Ports in the Liner with a flash light, this also has the advantage of letting you see the ring pack as it passes the ports ( when barring the engine over gently not using the starter)and you can see wear on the rings- something you cannot see with a bore scoping.

You've had some good responses on the engines. I will give you one on the market.

The boat that will re-sell the best in one year is the one that you can offer and price the lowest. Buyers are attracted these days by a low asking price. So if you get a wonderful buy on the purchase side, you will be in a better position to price attractively on the selling side.

In past years I have always been amazed by "price shoppers" that buy the low price "deal" without much regard to the actual boat they're buying. We have now reached a boat buying climate where "the deal" is paramount. There are plenty of nice boats, owned by caring owners that have maintained them well and for whatever reason are now motivated to sell. Shop around and buy a nice boat that will fit your needs at the best price point you can find. That will be your best bet for a one year turnaround. Oh, one more suggestion: Try to avoid repo boats. They are in most cases distressed in one way or another and will not be your best value.

Good luck in your search.

K1W1, on survey the borescope is done thru the air box and indeed the surveyor will take a look at the ring as well.

Hi,

A thorough Bore Scope should also be done with the Injectors removed so the exhaust valves and cylinder head surface can be seen at close range- this is if the quick cheap way I suggested earlier does not look very good.

I will echo Capt J's comments about the 6.71's below. They are a great engine at the low to moderate power settings.

The 6-71's are considered the best engine that DD made. They are going to smoke a little at start up and such, but once warm aren't usually any smokier then anything else. And much less smokier then the 2004 1050 MAN's I just ran today under 1000 rpms. They also have a tendancy to have oil leaks. BUT, they should go 5,000 hrs + if taken care of, some even go 10,000hrs between rebuilds. But like any engine overheat them once or run out of oil (oil line blowing) it's all over.

Parts are abundant and relatively cheap. Maintanence is relatively easy and not too difficult or time consuming either in relation to a MAN or Volvo or. They'll pretty much get you home even with a rod through the side of the block. They're reliable also.

BE CAREFUL rolling the motor over by hand and looking at the cylinders via the airbox access ports. If it is done in the wrong direction it will snap the seawater pump shaft.

Fuel Efficiency, you won't get a more fuel efficient motor under 1,000 rpm's for that size vessel with anything else. If you're doing a lot of slow speeds in the ICW or not in a rush, the DD's are very very fuel efficient under 1050rpms. At cruise they may burn a little more then comparable engines from the day, but I would say maybe 10% if that. The 92 series are a lot less efficient at cruise speeds then the 71 series.

I wouldn't be afraid of them by any means. They're just considered dinosaur technology in today's era, but their simpleness makes them very reliable also. Not to mention, you can find a diesel mechanic that can work on Detroits ANYWHERE as well as parts.

The Viking would be my choice, but the other's aren't a bad choice either........

not very practical with a DD since if you pull the injectors, you have to do a tuneup and reset the rack. This may raise some issues with the seller and add a few extra hours.

Yeah, I have been through 100's of surveys with yachts that had DD's. They only yanked the injectors on one yacht with 12v71's. Anyways, after they reset the rack and whatever, one of the injector tubes leaked, filled a cylinder with coolant and hydrolocked it the first time the new owner attempted to use the vessel. It was a DD dealer and they had to put a cylinder kit in that motor. Every other time and every other yacht, the engine surveyors have only looked through the airbox which I guess is enough of an inspection to determine how everything else should look.

unless you have a hard limit due to a specific slip and can't go over by a couple of feet, a few extra feet makes no difference from a cost or even handling perspective.

I've lived aboard my 1970 53 for 5 1/2 years and love it. I use the boat quite a bit too and it's very easy to single hand. Built like a tank...

on the down size, it's a little slow; I have 8V71 Naturals so forget even gtrying to get on plane. Those with Turbos will get on plane (just...) so if you want speed, these are not ideal boats. At 9kts, I burn about 9 to 10 GPH though, making it very economical consideing the space.

The large aft deck on teh same level as the saloon is probably the best thing about these boats. Great ventilation too, lots of room at the bow and on the flybridge. Some dont' like the galley down layout, I do...

i looked at various boats before getting a Hatt., but it didn't take me long to make up my mind.

More important than even educated opinions regarding which boat is "better" than the next is the General Market Perception of these vessels wherein the Hat 53 is generally perceived to be better than the Californian 48, leaving the Ocean 48 as a distant...fourth.
Better buy that 53 with stabs, though, because even though you might not need them for your usage, the market perceives that they are very necessary and, come resale time, the stabilized Hats command a higher price and sell more quickly.
On the subject of 6-71s, I concur with the thoughts of others here regarding reliability, cheap parts, etc. A 1980 Ocean 42 was sold to a gentleman some years ago in Clearwater with Six Thousand Hours (some thought it to be a typo) on her Jimmys. The boat started with a lot of smoke, cleared it's throat, and ran twenty knots on her trial runs. The survey mechanic reported a severe lack of crosshatching in the cylinder bores ("like a baby's butt", he said) but assured the buyer that they wouldn't just 'blow up'. That guy ran the boat home to Miami and ran it years afterward back & forth to the Islands.

I have a lot of experience with a 53' Hatteras and 58' Yachtfish (as well as others.) If possible I would spring for a 58' Yachtfish over a 53', the boat is the same as the 53' except with a 5' cockpit which ADDS 150 gallons of water, 330 gallons of fuel, and makes getting on and off a lot easier in a lot of places as well as docking (line handling) storage, and fishing/diving. And both boats will have a nice sized tender such as a 13' Boston Whaler.....

That being said either the 53' or 58' YF is a VERY comforable boat. Large galley for it's size with a 25 cu ft. refrigerator, 3 nice staterooms, easy engine room, very roomy salon. It has a lot of space and is very very quiet inside at the dock, you don't hear hull slap or anything. That would be my first choice. I slept better on that yacht than any of the other 1000's I've slept on. The a/c's will also keep the yacht at 70 degrees inside when it's 95 outside......

As for stabilizers, they come in very handy and help, however the 58' YF I ran all over hell and back for many years didn't have them. In a head sea, the 53 or 58'YF you won't even feel 6'. However in a beam they'll roll. BUT, if the boat is equipped with stabilizers and you go to sell it, they better work. Otherwise people will be knocking money off of your price, if they're not there it doesn't effect them one way or another.......I don't think stabilizers add very much to the sales price at the price level they're at, but would like them on that boat if they're a fairly modern set or dated Naiad's that work

The 58' YF I ran had 8v71TI's and at cruise, it had the smaller 90lph injectors installed instead of 110 lph's it would burn 30gph at 13.5 knots...... with the bigger injectors it cruised at 15. If you go with a 53' go with a boat with 8v71 TI's if you're looking at a lot of ocean running, the extra speed gives them a good amount of stability. There is a 58' YF named Endurance up in Charleston, SC that is a very very nice one.......low hrs since rebuild, recent paint, well maintained all of the way around, many many updates....it impressed me, the owner put in brazilian teak throughout the salon, granite countertops throughout, new gen....... I think it's listed by Peter Kehoe & associates out of Pompano Beach, FL

As for the Californian, they're a well built boat, with somewhat of a falling. But nearly as much as Hatteras and they haven't been in business in many years.

The 48 MY (they also made a 48 CPMY) has a largish interior, great 'back porch', and an excellent ride. Low CG negates need for stabs. There are some freshwater boats out there on the market; prices are commensurate with condition & Cats vs. GMs.

Thanks again.

..YW..