3D rapid conceptual design

I am familiar with the procedure you describe but I've always brought a hand sketch into a CAD program, made 2D drawings and brought the drawings into the modelling program. Then I can also export the CAD lines to a vector graphics program to make presentation images if I want to.

What software did you use in making these images? It looks like an interesting tool. Are the flat images raster files exported from the vector graphics app or is there a way to bring the vector graphics into the modelling program?

Personally the way i do it, is putting the sketch into AutoCAD, then neatenin it up in there, then importing the flat image from AutoCAD into Alias where it is very easy to do 3D modelling. Then once the design is finalised in Alias you can select what you want to export to a dxf file which can then be re-imported to AutoCAD and then a technical, 3D drawing is produced.

There are probably easier ways of doing, but each to their own! You can also print straight from Alias, but i find AutoCAD easier to print from and to keep to scale.

Yes, we are all different... I am a 2D-fan!

I am working from A to Z in Freehand, a vector postscript program. This allows me to play around with the profile forever until I think it looks OK to go further with an interior. This is also made as if I was using a pen and paper but with the measurement information on the screen. I also make a number of guidelines, like a wireframe to know the three dimensions which I remove later. And sometimes I add colours and shadows to give it a 3D-feeling.

So basically it is all an illustration until production shall commence. Then I either just blow it up and print it as oldfashioned 1/10 drawings, or if a CNC is to be used I send it to the guys who can transfer it into CAD/CAM drawings. Since this is more of engineering with frames and reinforcements to be added, I would never make it anyway why I feel a 3D-program should only slow down and limit my design job.

And finally, I have more problems reading a 3D-picture than a 2D so for me it is a waste of time and money, even if I know some people like them...

Here is an old example of a 41-footer where a number of profiles were drawn, all in less than a day. And after that the interior which on this little boat took just another day.

Hi and welcome back!

The boat on the front page is a catamaran and need more work on my side if the result should be of interest. But I have another yacht where I have to admit that a 3D-job would help people to understand how she is intended to being built. It is also a yacht where your 3D-tools are pretty easy to use as there are not many double curved areas.

You can see all decks here; http://www.YachtForums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5426&postcount=4

Those geometric shapes will look much better in 3D and you will understand how the flybridge is really flying above the main salon attached to the two funnels.

You can PM me your e-mail address if you like to have EPS- or bigger JPG-files..

/Lars

Workshop?

Sorry, that I can not explain it better. I can't explain what we do just by sending pictures, because picture is just picture.

I do alot of conceptional design in 3D. A ship is not just the exterior look, the hull and superstructure. There are main engines, auxillary machines, pipings, cables, moving parts. So you can imagine the problem of how manage this complex sistem in an effective way. There are alot of intereference between parts that can be viewed and discuss better in 3D. What I am talking is not the styling phase of yacht/ship design. In this case, I will use paper and pencil ;-)

The problem is, how to manage and distribute works to different division/department in a design/shipyard company and with several supplier? This is where PLM (Product LifeCycle Management) comes in. It would be a good idea if other division are also involved during the design / styling phase, so they can contribute their experience to the team. Imagine how the steel department should interact with the piping and machine department in both direction. The other should know what others do and what changes are done, to start changes in their own department. One friend of mine work at a famous shipyard and he tells me, that there are a lot of delays due to uneffective working process. There exist only ONE database of the product structure and any body can read those files and load in their CAD program. They can make changes, depending on their access rights, write comments etc.

The best way to demonstrate is to show you all a demo of a design and construction project of a ship with several laptops. A workshop kind of so

There is no wrong or right, but how to achieve a more effective working proccess with the available tools. You can design, construct and make technical drawings with paper, as people did in the past time, but how fast and another questionn is would there less changes? Traditional (non parametric and non associative) 2D CAD is no other than a replacement of a drawing board.

3D parametric and associative CAD can make life easier if there are alot of changes, because depending on the intelegence of the user changes is most done automatically. Another aspect of modern high end 3D CAD is you can make study of assembly by simulating of moving and position of part and see how they interact with other parts and what impact they have to the overall design.

If there is any interest of such workshop done in such CAD just mail me, we can discuss it further. By no means I make advertising of any software to you all, but I want to open a discussion of how could we work, collaborate for the same project (big and complicated project) with the most effective way, no matter what software being used. It would also be interesting to start a workshop to show designer office to show show the existing technology and make intersting discussion during the sessions.

I hope my explanation satisfied you. Sorry for my english:-/


best regards,


Jos

One example of complexity

Here is one example of how Pipping and HVAC would interesect with each other or with the steelworks. Changes can be minimized if you can design in 3D and view in 3D by rotating the model as early as possible. If the piping route colide with the steel work or HVAC route, than the responsible designer will notice it, because he work in virtual 3D. Some shipyards use scaled plastic model of the machine room to do coordination. This also take alot of work and very expensive. You can do that in 3D CAD and if you still want a model, just produce a STL file of the model and print it with a 3D printer, which I already did last year.
Design in my view is not just styling, but making a good concpet and this can be done if everyone from the begining (design, marketing) to the production department are involved. Good concept can be better achieved if you know which tool you should have to do your job done.


regads,


Jos

Now I understand better what you are talking about and for me it is still much better with 2D where I can work without restrictions until a concept is created.

What you are working with is what comes after, when you have decided to build a yacht and this is interesting in itself, but not for "rapid conceptual design" I think.

On the Boat-Design.net forum someone said that you can tell when boats are designed in 3D-programs and I must agree on that. You have to be a very experienced designer to get anything straight out from a 3D-program and none of the less than a handful such designers that I know of is working like this.

I think it is the same with house architects and most industrial designers, they start with paper or 2D before they go into 3D or CAD/CAM.

But I think your topic deserves a thread of it´s own and especially engine room design is something where you will have a lot of advantages from working in 3D from the beginning.

Why don´t you copy most of your post and start a new thread called CAD/CAM design?

/Lars

CAD Dummy here . Speaking of conceptualization, is there modeling software cheaper than Rhino? I did look up the topic on the BoatDesign site. Which led me to shareware like Carlson Design and PolyCAD. But these seemed focused on developing the hull surface. Not detailing a design with railings, radars, blah, blah. I'm interested in easy to produce 3D renderings, not calculations (at this stage).

Thanks,
Kelly Cook

Lars,

Who ever JNR was, he decided to delete all of his threads, thus making the conversation look like... you're talking to yourself!

I'm going to address this in the edit post time-out, so it won't happen again. If someone needs to delete something (months later!), we'll do it from the control panel. Feel free to edit this thread as you wish. Kelly had a question, maybe you can pick it up from here...

Back to working on code...

Hi Kelly,

I am afraid there are no 3D rendering programs that are easy to use, but some are more easy than others.

JMR who had to delete his posts and renderings due to his employment situation, have tried to make a 3D model/rendering of my 30 m Classic. I am afraid he gave up after a while, but as you see he used my 2D drawings and translated them into a pretty straight forward program that I don´t know the name of.

Tartanski who works with very advanced software in his profession, started out to make my 36 m HighTech yacht in another, for me unknown, but easy to use program. This 3D picture was built in 30 minutes and will hopefully be finished later on. He might also add some information in this thread.

And the bottom picture is my latest design of a 40-foot hull made in Rhino for CNC-milling of the plug for GRP production. This was also modelled after my 2D drawings, but eventhough all the information was there and nothing is changed, it took an experienced engineer almost 100 hours to make!

This is why I stick to my 2D programs....

/Lars

Thanks for the fast response guys!

Heck, I'm all for 2D for the conceptualization phase (or even Freehand for that matter). However, still would need to grind the 2D data through a 3D program in order to produce a perspective rendering, correct? Since the 3D program is in the work flow anyhow, thought it would be just as easy to start in 3D. But no? Is there 2D-to-rendering software that is easier to use than sticking with 3D from the start?

See, I wasn't kidding about the CAD Dummy part
Kelly

Kelly,

I got this message from JMR, regarding your question above...

"try Blender 3D for windows. Its a free 3D modeller for
character animation...or try one of the POV modeller
out there."

Thanks! I will look into those

CAD Dummy

Report from the trenches

Downloaded one of the less expensive 3D programs for a try out (AC3D). Lars was right, more trouble to master than it's worth. Note to self - next time listen to Lars!

former CAD Dummy, now CAD Roadkill

3D Design

I use Autoship Version 9 (not released yet, I'm a beta tester.) And I don't work in 2d at all. I start right in with 3D. If I have a client sketch I might trace it in Autocad and import it as a template but usually I just put in a few lines to mark the overall envelop than start modeling. I often go through 15-20 versions before I'm satisfied although by version 5 the overall shape is usually set then details start happening.

I can model just about anything in Autoship, and use Autostructure for frames and stiffeners on metal boats. I sometimes use Solidworks for interiors where there is a GRP liner.

Autoship built in rendering is Opengl and good enough for the design process, but I use 3D studio, or most frequently Bryce for presentation renderings. The latter is cheap and fairly easy to use, and does excellent water surfaces with realistic reflections.

All this represents a considerable effort in learning, all these programs work differently from each other. But I gave up my drafting table 20 years ago and I don't miss it.

2D drawings for the builder are done at the end with shapes extracted from the 3D model, via DXF to Autocad. I rarely use Autocad 3D features.

Nice lighting. Was that put in with Bryce?

Kelly

Lighting

That is Bryce "sunlight" which you can position to any angle. It can do fabulous sunsets but I don't use them much, I'm trying to sell boat designs not pretty seascapes.