Motor & Sailing Vessels (MotorSailer)

Over Spec via marketing

.....taken from another forum discussion on this subject:

From Portsmouthmarine pages:

".....Now it's time to head home, and you're faced with a 50-mile passage into a head wind, rain, and big seas.
No problem. Your new sailing yacht can power at 11 knots even in rough weather. It has a special hull shape that is fast under power and a 300-HP auxiliary that will bash through almost anything."

I find this totally misleading (mmmm....may I say it's bull****?)
__________________
Guillermo Gefaell


reference:http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=161693&postcount=229

Over Spec via Marketing Claims

This was another rather long subject thread dealing with this same subject matter:
Monohull verses Multihull Powersailers/Motorsailers
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4499

"I've wanted to bring up a subject that seems to be a trend amoung monohull folks lately. I can only think it has to do with the competition they are feeling from the multihull market. I continue to see these inflated claims as to their particular design's performance capabilities, particularly under sail....."

Burger, Sparkman & Stephens team up on motorsailers

Burger, Sparkman & Stephens team up on motorsailers

Wednesday, 29 October 2008
Burger Boat Company and Sparkman & Stephens are joining forces to design and build custom aluminum motorsailers.

These vessels will continue what was started with the first Sparkman & Stephens-designed aluminum yawl built by Burger in 1957.

The collaboration will see the introduction of three new motorsailers from 90ft-150ft (27.4m-45.7m) that were designed exclusively for Burger by Sparkman. The hull and superstructure of the new vessels will be fabricated in Alustar aluminium and will feature the latest in technology and state-of-the-art innovation.

Sparkman & Stephens has designed more than 50 motorsailers in the past 78 years, beginning with the Tamerlane in 1933 and culminating with vessels such as Osprey, Sea Angel, Freedom and Galileo, among others. The new high-performance motorsailers make use of recent advances in computer modelling, rig design and material science, and are uniquely suited for exploration.

Burger’s worldwide fleet is composed entirely of unique yachts — built one of a kind, one at a time. The company delivers a limited number of new yachts per year.

Sparkman & Stephens designers have incorporated recent advances in computer modeling, rig design and material science into each of these new boats. As a result, fuel-efficient and environmentally friendly systems were specified from the earliest design stages.

Burger Boat, based in Manitowoc, Wis., designs and builds custom motoryachts to 200 feet in aluminum and/or steel.

Power with Wind, The Return of the Motorsailer

copy of letter I recently sent to:
Bill Jacobs, Contributing Editor, PassageMaker magazine

I really appreciated reading your article on “ Power with Wind, The Return of the Motorsailer” in the Dec ‘08 issue of Passagemaker magazine. Back in the early days of this magazine I inquired on several occasions about submitting some material on the same subject of motorsailers, but it was rejected at that time as being outside their scope of subject matter due to it’s inclusion of a vessel “with sails”…no ‘sailing vessels’ allowed. I’m glad the magazine has awakened to the realities of this new world fuel situation, and given recognition to the old concept of the ‘motorsailer’.

I’m judging from the internet sites that you referenced and quoted in the article that you’ve done a fair bit of web browsing on the subject. This being the case, I would also assume that you have likely run across some of the discussions that I’ve contributed on the subject? Here are a few of those forum discussions in case you did not find them:

Motor/Sailer Design, Expedition Yacht
http://www.runningtideyachts.com/motorsailing/

Motor Sailers
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/motor-sailers-501.html

Displacement Glider, PowerKeel, etc
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/powerboats/displacement-glider-powerkeel-etc-12512.html#post95771

Motor Sailers by Philip Rhodes & John Alden
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sailing-discussion/6710-motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden.html

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/motor-sailers-philip-rhodes-john-alden-16721.html


Obviously I was very taken with the motorsailer concept as well. My early foray (66 years old) into the yachting field was met with most publications of that time making numerous mentions of the term “motorsailer”….very popular term at the time. Sadly the concept has been neglected for so long.

I confess I was a little disappointed that you failed to mention, nor make reference to, the possibilities of multihulled motorsailers, i.e.;

Motor/Sailing Catamaran Concept
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/motor-sailers-501-2.html#post43251

Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/motorsailers/monohull-verses-multihull-powersailers-motorsailers-4499.html

Gamefishing for Sail Under Sail (and power)
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-sailing-discussion/1548-gamefishing-sail-under-sail-power.html



,,But I commend you on mentioning the kite-power possibilities. I’ve started this subject thread on several design forums (and particularly at the urging of Guillermo):

New Age Trawler/Motorsailer; Kite assisted PowerYacht
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/8127-new-age-trawler-motorsailer-kite-assisted-poweryacht.html
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/new-age-trawler-motorsailer-kite-assisted-poweryacht-20319.html



,,,And I do realize that you couldn’t cover the entire subject matter in only one article.

I want to make reference to your article on both boat forums, and include a link to Passagemaker magazine. It might also be nice that there existed a *permanent web location* where the forum members could go and read a copy of the article . But as happens far to often, many of them may not be able to gain access to the article at some point in the future when a linked-site is taken down. Would you consider placing a PFD article into the forum discussions? ….or is this not allowed in the publishing world?

Thanks again for your article on the subject matter,
Brian Eiland


PS: It was also very interesting that your motorsailer article was followed immediately with an article on Steve Dashew’s exciting new passagemaker, Wind Horse ,…
....a power vessel to contrast with the sailing vessels that he has promoted for years….nice contrast, and a wealth of interesting material.

Published Ltr to Editor

Just a few days ago I was informed by a friend that Passagemaker Mag published this letter I wrote to the editor....pleasant surprise.

That magazine has really embraced the idea of motorsailers in the last few years, verses their sole interest in trawlers in the beginning

Powersailer with Aft-Mast Rig

Per one of the words in the title of this other subject thread 'Powersailers' I thought I would bring up this 40 powersailer from Thailand.
http://tinyurl.com/catamaran-power-sailing-HK40

It utilizes that aft-mast arrangement I've touted for a long time. Seems the Hong Kong owner is quite happy with it. There are several more being built. In fact I've been told the second one is being launched today, and that I will receive some new photos soon.

Here's the first one

40' Powersailer

The second Hong Kong 40 Powersailer has been launched a few days ago, and there are updated photos on that referenced webpage.

The builder sent this note,

"Yesterday they were sailing to Kho Chang with 6.9 knts speed with only one sail. Top speed is 9,5 knts with 2 x 50 hp"

Sail-Assisted Trawler/Power Cat, BAMBA 50'

Here is another sail-assisted power cat that looks to be a real comfortable live-aboard, go anywhere motorsailer. and it happens to sport an optional sailing rig, an AftMast one at that.

Lets see I think I've touted both of these ideas,....aft mast rigs, and motorsailing catamarans....

BambaYachts - individually built and with external project management

That Bamba 50' has a lot of similar looks to that 80' Song Saigon cat I posted a few months ago,.....oh yeah same designers, Joubert Nivelt Design

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-catamaran-discussion/15333-song-saigon-80-custom-trawler-catamaran.html

In general a motorsailing vessel is sought after as a fuel reducing exercise. Did you see the fuel usage on MITseaAH


There are also a few massive efforts expended to attain a powering speed of 25 knots; two huge 12 cyl 3500 hp diesels, 204,000 gal fuel supply tanks, Servogear, computer-controlled, variable- pitch 4' dia props, and a very complicated bottom configuration with recesses to accommodate the big props, plus huge hydraulic rams to control the two vast trim tabs extending across the whole width of the transom, and finally a complicated retracting rudder system to operate in the area of these trim tabs. Sure sounds extremely complicated , expensive, and HEAVY. That much HP, and that much fuel, reminds me of another article I included in the archives of my website, “The Need For Speed” <http://www.runningtideyachts.com/art...dforspeed.html>, wherein there is a discussion of the ever spiraling need for bigger engines to carry the ever increasing load of fuel required by the bigger engines. (in this case for some modern game fishing vessels).

I would venture to guess that the alternative big catamaran design might have only required twin engines as small as 600 HP.....or lets go with a big extra margin and chose twin 1000 HP’s. Total, 2000 HP verses 7000 HP!! Quite a difference in fuel needs, weight needs, space needs, and propulsion gear sizing and configuration. And what about all of that extra aux power required to run the hydraulics required for MITseaAH’s trim tabs, auto-gyro flaps, controllable pitch props, keel control, extendable mast, etc, etc I know which vessel I would rather be charged with maintaining in good working order.

Please excuse me just a moment while I digress to consider the fuel needs of these big engines. The owner looks forward to trips from Long Island, NY and Newport, RI to Bermuda. I believe it has been estimated that MITseaAh will burn about 60 % of her fuel load on this 25kt dash out the 630 miles from Newport to Bermuda. That works out to about 122,400 gal or about 200 gal/mile. At an average approaching $3.5 per gal (between here and Bermuda) this trip will run about $428K per one way trip.

I’ll bet we could have cut this bill SUBSTANTIALLY with the catamaran hull form. And we might have been capable of maintaining a higher average transit speed in adverse conditions.

We could buy a new boat for the price of her fuel

You are somewhat correct. I made a BIG mistake in that original fuel quote. I just corrected on the MITseaAH thread I originally posted on the form. What I came up with is a spec sheet from the builder that stated 54,000 liters or 14,267 gals

Looks like I've made a BIG mistake. That fuel capacity figure is just plain wrong....don't know where I got it but I'm almost sure I copied it from some text in an early magazine article on the vessel. Here is what I just found:
http://www.***************.com/yachts/details/680

Now if she uses 60% of that capacity to make quoted trip it would be 8,560 gals. At $3.5 per gallon, the trip would cost about $30,000 in fuel.

Sorry about that mistake.

Its been a long time, but I thought it might be time to return to this motorsailer subject for true long range cruising with economy and reasonable size in mind.

I had forgotten about that Bamba 50 I posted above....#28



Here is a PDF on her,....
https://www.aeroyacht.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Bamba50-2011-12-MULTIHULLSWORLD-review.pdf

Nice looking design, and lots of accommodations in a 50 footer.

She can even be beached for bottom work in remote areas,..(see photo in article)

Would you care to point some of those technical disadvantages?

How about this motorsailer,..the 70 foot Saphira,....
Look what the older couple have come up with ! performance, ease of handling, and safety



Here is a very interesting story of the development of this vessel
https://www.cruisingworld.com/people/a-dream-takes-flight/

And I imagine that the up-keep on this vessel could be far less than many comparable vessels,....only 2 sails, minimal rigging, two nice size engine rooms, etc, etc

I'm impressed !!