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Azimut 50 Fly Shorepower issue/diagram needed

Discussion in 'Azimut Yacht' started by Nathanw, Jul 26, 2022.

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  1. Nathanw, Jul 26, 2022
    #1
    Nathanw

    Nathanw New Member

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    Hello all,
    Does anyone know what type of mechanism Azimut uses to switch between the generator and shore power? I'm having an issue with a customers 2006 Azimut 50 Flybridge tripping the supply breaker for shore power, even with all the ac breakers on the yacht in the off position, which leads me to believe the issue is between the main AC breaker panel and the shore power cord. The selector switch on the dash appears to be controlling some sort of low voltage solenoid or relay to actually switch the source but I have been unable to locate the mechanism or any manuals/wiring diagrams. Everything works fine off of the gen. The owner had a new GFCI installed on shore to no avail also. Thanks in advance for any info.

    Nathan
  2. Nathanw, Jul 26, 2022
    #2
    Nathanw

    Nathanw New Member

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    PS. Forgot to add, the boat works fine on shore power where the dock does NOT have a GFCI. Thinking the switching mechanism is feeding a little voltage back to ground.
  3. Pascal, Jul 27, 2022
    #3
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Who knows what it could be but usually when a dockside GFCI trips it is caused by an appliance that bounds N to G
  4. mapism, Jul 27, 2022
    #4
    mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    The OP said that the dockside GFCI trips also with all onboard AC breakers off, so it doesn't sound like an appliance problem.
    In fact, his assumption that the problem is somewhere between the cord and the main breaker makes good sense.
    I believe that the shore power cord is connected to a transom socket, isn't it?
    If so, I'd start checking/cleaning/drying that socket internally. I've seen it collecting enough humidity to allow for some current dispersion, and it doesn't take a lot to trip a GFCI (normally 30 mA in Europe, not sure about the US).
    BTW, does the boat have also an onboard GFCI, downstream of the main AC breaker?
  5. Nathanw, Jul 27, 2022
    #5
    Nathanw

    Nathanw New Member

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    It has an onboard cord with a cablemaster. I found the relay finally, its behind the generator and inaccessible but i bet the problem is going to be in there when i finally get to it. Looked like there were 3 smaller dc relays and one 3 pole contactor in the box, assuming the coil is feeding some voltage back.
  6. Pascal, Jul 27, 2022
    #6
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    could be something else indeed but what usually trips dockside GFCI is N to G bonding in an appliance or in a non marine inverter. Turning off individual breakers doesn’t help isolating the problem since a single pole breaker doesn’t disconnect N which remains bonded to G

    when my marina was rebuilt a couple of years ago, new dockside GFCI created a lot of problems for many people
  7. mapism, Jul 27, 2022
    #7
    mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    I'd be very surprised if there were any single pole breakers on a 2006 Azimut - for AC lines, at least.
    I can't remember exactly when double pole breakers on AC lines became a standard requirement here, but I'm 99% sure it happened before the current century! :)
  8. mapism, Jul 27, 2022
    #8
    mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Out of idle curiosity, do you possibly know which is the current dispersion limit for GFCI devices in US?
    It's 30 mA here, as I said...
  9. mapism, Jul 27, 2022
    #9
    mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Whoa! A cablemaster on a 50 footer sounds like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist... :)
    Makes me wonder if that's part of US specs for Azimut or if it was retrofitted, 'cause I've never seen it on any of their "EU" boats under 60 feet or so - if not even larger.

    Regardless, I agree with your expectation of what the culprit could be.
    All the best for your hunting, and looking fwd to hearing the final result!
  10. Pascal, Jul 27, 2022
    #10
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    On every boat I ve own or run, individual circuit breaker for 120v circuits were always single pole. Only 240v circuits had double pole to disconnects both legs

    and of course the main breakers for each 120v subpanel are dual pole
  11. mapism, Jul 27, 2022
    #11
    mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Interesting. Here that's not even compliant with the standards for AC electrical systems - not anymore, at least.
    If Nathanw could confirm if the AC breakers fitted in the boat he's working on are single or double pole, I for one would be curious to know.
  12. Jacob Gatliff, Jul 27, 2022
    #12
    Jacob Gatliff

    Jacob Gatliff New Member

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    Azimut and most other Italian express cruisers I've worked on have a transfer box somewhere buried in the least accessible place. Usually I find them all the way aft behind a bunch of stuff.

    You probably won't have much luck communicating with Azimut for new parts, I am sure the Italians are on holiday as per usual... Find a new set of contactors that fit the parameters of the system and replace all of them if you find one that is bad
  13. Capt J, Jul 27, 2022
    #13
    Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Why would anyone want to drag a 42 pound shore cord around and on a 50' Azimut you're lucky to find storage for the life jackets, let alone a big coiled up shore cord.
  14. Nathanw, Jul 27, 2022
    #14
    Nathanw

    Nathanw New Member

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    It is a 240v system with double pole breakers, the only single poles in this boat are on the DC side. Everything on the AC side of the boat is 240v except outlet receptacles, assuming there's a transformer somewhere to power those which I haven't been able to locate yet. That transformer is about the only place I can think of where there might be some bonding happening, but with the breakers off and power going no further than the main panel I wouldn't think bonding there would cause a problem until there was voltage available to feed back to ground.? Over here in the United Stinks our gfci's are required to trip at 5 mA for class A devices and 20 mA for class B. They're really picky about it around the lake of the ozarks where this boat is, there were something like 8 or 9 people that died over a short period a few years ago from swimming around docks with power issues, which there is no shortage of on that lake. I assumed the cablemaster was factory installed, it's in the port side stern locker, there's a box with a shore power and a tansfer breaker in there also as well as TV/Phone hookups. Personally I don't see the need for it either, the shore power outlet is only about 1 foot over and 3 feet above where the cable spools out. I've even seen cablemaster's on boats as small as 38 feet down there, I think people just like having another switch to show off. ;)
  15. ranger58sb, Jul 28, 2022
    #15
    ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    How much does typical Euro-current shore cord weigh? This is 16A or 32A or something like that, single phase?


    Yeah... Our current cord is 75' overall and at transient docks it almost always seems to need at least 50' of that to get from boat to pedestal.

    When we bought our last boat it was a 50A/250V system with no Cablemaster. A Cablemaster had been an option the original buyer apparently declined. I wondered why Cablemasters exist. I'd never schlepped 50A shore cord around before, though, only the skinny/lightweight 30A cords.... which can also be handled one at a time. I began to discover early on that the extra weight for the 50A cord was becoming significant. We installed a Cablemaster.

    -Chris
  16. mapism, Jul 28, 2022
    #16
    mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Each to their own of course, but between these two views I definitely tend to agree with Nathanw on the reason for having a Cablemaster on 50' (or even smaller) boats. :D
    BTW, a major drawback of Cablemaster and its drum is the space it takes, so I'm puzzled by CJ comment about storage: if anything, you'd have more of it with NO Cablemaster, rather than the other way round!

    Ref. weight, (also in reply to Chris), on my 56 footer I've got a 32A cord (230V single phase), 65 feet long give or take (20m), and it's nowhere near 42 pounds. I never bothered actually weighing it, but I don't think it's much more than half of that.
    A Cablemaster for handling it would be beyond a joke, 'fiuaskme - not to mention how much longer it takes to handle the cord with it.
    But as I said, each to their own!
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
  17. Pascal, Jul 28, 2022
    #17
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I have an 80’ 50 amp cord on my personal 53 and no cable master. I m stern in so the cable runs from the inlet just forward of the pilothouse doors along the weather boards and I have the bulk of it coiled and hanging inside. When I leave, I only have to coil up the last 20’ which I hang of the aft deck. Quick and easy.
  18. Fiammetta42, Jul 28, 2022
    #18
    Fiammetta42

    Fiammetta42 Member

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    Have you opened up the end that plugs into the dock and checked it’s connections ?
    How you tried another dock pedestal? .
    How easy is it to check the boat end of the lead ?
  19. ranger58sb, Jul 28, 2022
    #19
    ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    I expect that speaks to the difference in perception. A 50' Marinco 4-wire 50A/250V shorepower cord like we would use here (last boat was 42') weighs ~45 lbs.... so a 65' cord would weigh approx 59 lbs.

    A 3-wire version, as would be useful with an isolation transformer (no neutral, as I understand it), would weight less, but I dunno how much less.

    In either, it's usually #6 AWG wire, if it's copper...

    FWIW, we find handling with the Cablemaster assistance is much faster; not as much "tangle and re-organize, argue with coils" and so forth.

    -Chris
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2022
  20. MBevins, Jul 28, 2022
    #20
    MBevins

    MBevins Senior Member

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    Have to agree, my 44 Viking didn't come with one, that was on the must do list before she came home. Why the hell would I want to drag that cord around if I don't have to.
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