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Some very basic questions.

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by CivVic, Jun 23, 2022.

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  1. CivVic

    CivVic New Member

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    Hello everyone that reads this.
    I'm quite new to the whole idea of boating but I've tried to do some research already. My main conclusions from the research are that I am really interested in getting a boat but also practically know nothing of the day to day.
    And well, the day to day is the most important thing I suspect.
    So I'm going to ask a few questions that may make some of the more seasoned among you smack your head at my foolishness, and I apologize in advance, I'm not being dumb on purpose and I'd rather ask than not know.

    The boat I'm leaning towards the most is the Sunseeker Predator 74 XPS.
    1. Is it true that if I buy new I'm probably looking at a operating costs (excluding crew) of about 10% of purchase price a year?
    2. Is this steady because the older it gets the devaluation may be balanced by higher maintenance costs or does it at some point start to get more/less expensive?
    3. The brochure says 'Up to 8 guests, up to 2 crew', if I'm planning to have no more than 4 overnight guests including myself, does that leave room for more crew?
    4. Assuming I'd want to spend 3 months boating, what crew is advisable on a 74" boat aside from the captain?
    This assumes I'm entirely a passenger as will any guest be, so we're no use when it comes to cooking/repairs/general operating.
    5. Does crew prefer to stay in crew quarters? Because if I have 2 guest quarters unused, can't they stay in there?
    6. I want to pay fairly, are the day rates I saw posted by Olderboater roughly comparable between the US and Europe? (disregarding the currency used, just numbers wise)
    7. I want crew to have enough time off to be happy and relaxed when they are working, what is reasonable? 2 day weekends and 10 days PTO every quarter? (if they are contracted by me that quarter) I don't want to do the minimum but there is a limit to my budget; what's a good balance? I don't want to be a dream employer but at least a good one.
    8. I consider alcohol a hard drug, If I add it to the zero tolerance list with (other) hard&soft drugs can I still get crew? I'm okay with smokers but I really don't like being around people under the influence of anything more than Caffeine/Nicotine really.
    9. While Google says this thing can cross oceans, I'd rather check here, is that true? If yes, can it do so comfortably or do you have to find some Goldilocks moment and still brace yourself for the journey?
    10. How does crew feel about pets? Is that a rare deal-breaker or will it prevent a lot of crew from even interviewing? (We'd be doing the feeding/washing/vet care/cleaning up after it)
    11. Due to an accident my back without much warning starts hurting a lot and sitting in a Jacuzzi really alleviates that, is it possible to have a Jacuzzi fitted on a boat of this size? Not asking if Sunseeker specifically does this, but if it's generally possible.
    12. Suppose we do a lot of yachting for a few years but eventually stop going less and less and we decide to sell the boat, say after 5 years of at least 50% usage, what kind of resale percentage can we roughly count on?

    I think those are all my questions for now, thanks to anybody that took the time to read some/all of that and anybody that takes the time to answer. If you don't know all the answers but know a few, please still answer! Questions 4-7 are my most burning questions, because well, after the boat itself, crew is a large cost for how much I imagine we'd use the boat.

    Thanks again to anybody taking the time to read and/or answer this (partially)!

    PS: English is not my native language, forgive me if I made syntax, grammatical or spelling errors.
  2. saltysenior

    saltysenior Senior Member

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    maybe..
  3. JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    Welcome to YF! That's way too many questions requiring extensive answers to be put in one post. Have you checked other threads through the "search" link to see if you can get some already posted fast answers?

    I'll answer the first few:
    1. Yes, if you buy new and have full factory warranties, then 10 % is the rule of thumb for annual maintenance. You exclude crew. The 10% also excludes dockage, fuel, and other off-deck expenses like insurance.
    2. Yes, as a boat gets older, it requires more maintenance. You shouldn't have to replace lines, hoses, pumps at the newish years, but they all have a life-expectancy and need to be replaced before they reach that. That's accounted for in the 10% as well as general repairs. But things like rebuilding an engine or generator or "whoops moments" are not.
    3. Count the bunks and you can divvy up the sleeping arrangements however you want. But remember, this is a yacht, not a camp. Sofa beds, sleeping bags, and the like are not appropriate for crew.
    4. If you are not doing full-time entertaining, a captain and mate could suffice for you and significant other. If you're entertaining, you also need a stew/chef.
  4. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    10% is a good starting point although final number will vary greatly depending on how you use the boat.

    the most overlook number of new boat ownership is depreciation. First year depreciation averages about 20% of value and tapers off in the following years. By year 5, depreciation is going to total about 35/40%

    on a boat that size crew quarters are often pretty cramped, especially European boats so using an unused guest cabin for the captain is certainly an option.

    Define ocean crossing ? As in crossing the Atlantic? No way. As short crossings in the med, sure.

    your boat your rules. If you want a dry boat, it’s your choice. If you want pets on boats, same. I don’t see why crew would object to pets unless they have allergy which is pretty rare
  5. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    1. You need to budget by line item. These percentages don't even tell you what is included. Is depreciation? Is a home dock? Is food? Is crew? I recommend this tool just to make sure you include everything. Superyacht Cost Calculator (luxyachts.com) Expand the details to the right and look at every line item.

    2. Initially warranty covers a lot so some items will get more expensive. Still, overall will not vary greatly.

    3. Brochures are advertising. Up to 8 means two in the lower salon. Actual staterooms only sleep 6. 2 crew is correct. Ideally with carrying four of you, the two crew could take the stateroom that has two twin beds.

    4. Three months boating on a Predator will not be fun with four of you and a crew of three, which is indicated since you need cooking and cleaning too. Even a crew of two, the living spaces, the galley, are all packed. A Sunseeker Yacht would be much better for long periods and the flybridge would be greatly appreciated.

    5. No, crew does not prefer crew quarters, even though Sunseeker's are better than many. The access is still not good.

    6. Europe is slightly lower in many cases due to the variety of nationalities from which crew can be chosen. However, underpaying will get you less quality in some cases.

    7. We work crew 220 days a year. Now, if they're either on the boat or away from home with the boat, we consider that to be work. So we provide 145 days off and home.

    8. We feel our alcohol rules enhance the quality of crew. Our crew, for the most part, doesn't even drink when on PTO and free to do so. An occasional drink with meals is about all we see. Alcohol is a serious issue with many crew members. Our smoking policy is even stronger due to allergies.

    9. B.S to crossing oceans. Google may say its a CE CAT A, but with a range of 330 nm or even 500 nm at slower speeds, it's not going to cross any oceans. Furthermore, while it rides very well for a sport boat, it's not designed for oceans. Sunseeker isn't a passagemaker brand until you reach 138'.

    10. How does crew feel about pets? Is that a rare deal-breaker or will it prevent a lot of crew from even interviewing? (We'd be doing the feeding/washing/vet care/cleaning up after it)

    10. Will you anchor out, if so, who will take pet to shore. Define pets. 1 dog? 1 cat? 3 dogs and 2 cats? Depends as some crew candidates have allergies, some have fears, some have dislikes.

    11. Due to an accident my back without much warning starts hurting a lot and sitting in a Jacuzzi really alleviates that, is it possible to have a Jacuzzi fitted on a boat of this size? Not asking if Sunseeker specifically does this, but if it's generally possible.

    11. Wrong boat for a Jacuzzi Hot Tub if that's what you mean. There are boats in the 85' range or so with Jacuzzi's. I don't even see one fitting on the Sunseeker 90 Ocean though. No boat can be it all. However, you can replace baths in many with jacuzzi tubs of some sort, even step in instead of showers. That's likely your best option in this general size range.

    12. 50-60% depending on condition of boat and economy. Steep initial drop, then more gradual.
  6. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    You already got several good answers I agree with, and I can't think to anything else relevant to add.

    But if you don't mind me asking, can you name your top three reasons why you are leaning towards this particular boat?
    I'm only asking because most of what you wrote suggest that other types of boats could suit your needs better.
    As far as I could grasp them, anyway.

    That said, you also introduced yourself as "new to boating", and I've yet to come across anyone who in hindsight didn't regret whatever they picked as their first boat, myself included.
    In other words, you'd be neither the first nor the last boater to realize after just one season or two that a different (possibly VERY different) type of boat would have been a better choice... :)
    But selling a 3 million or so boat which is among those more prone to depreciate quickly, that risks to be a very expensive learning process!
  7. CivVic

    CivVic New Member

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    I'm sorry for asking so many questions at once @JWY but I was scared I might forget to ask something I do genuinely need to know, and if I ask them all separately I'd be cluttering the forum, that was my reasoning at least. I did some searching around and found some stuff, but either I worded my searches poorly or just couldn't find the answers. Thanks for your time though!

    So that 10% is just owning the boat, excludes using and crewing? Fair enough. Yeah I imagine rebuilding or doing a whoopsie isn't covered but I would like to think if you hire the right captain, whoopsies aren't that common. That's a good way to count, going by bunks. And alright, that sounds good, so I'd need a captain, a mate and a cook, even if entertaining is uncommon I like food every day and with all love to my partner, not much use in the kitchen. If the numbers I read are roughly correct, I'd be looking at ~$1200 (Assuming 600 for captain, 300 for mate, 300 for cook) a day?


    @Pascal, I figured depreciation would hit like a freight train, 40% in 5 years is actually less than anticipated. And yeah I figured if there's an open room that's better than a crew cabin, it makes no sense to have them stay in the crew cabin, unless of course they prefer it there in which case I won't force them to move. Oh yikes, so 'ocean crossing' is not realistic at all? Granted there's a lot within reach of small crossings, like from France/Netherlands to the UK is a couple of miles of sea that some people have swam across, that's at least doable right? And fair enough, I guess I want the topside of the boat to be dry, yeah. Or at least, within reason, I'm not going to lose my mind over a glass of wine with dinner, just, want them in control of their faculties you know? Thanks for your time!


    @olderboater I've read quite a few of your posts and I'm glad to get a response from you, and for taking the time to answer it all :)
    Thanks, I will use that calculator. It came to $947,619, excluding a possible $144,000 rebate from chartering. (8% Maintenance, 15% owner, 23% crew, 3% administration, 11% reserves, 40% dockage and fuel) Assuming I did it right, I have no idea if that's a good balance. The only one I'm fairly certain on is Crew at ~$220k (/22 weeks is $1200 a day for a captain, a mate and a cook and 20% additional costs) Glad that warranty keeps it mostly stable.
    And I figured it's advertising which is mostly 'technically correct', but yeah, if guests only overnight once in a month while crew has to be there every night I'd rather use a crew cabin as a guest room and let crew use staterooms if they want. Which from reading your full response I imagine they would. It would mostly be us 2 and an older dog that's been thoroughly trained, is 2 people and 3 crew really that crammed on a 74' boat? Granted I was only on one for a day to test it out, but it really didn't seem that bad with 7 then, and we'd be with fewer. And is a predator not a Yacht? I may be missing something here.
    So 220/365 is 18 on, 12 off a month? Or is it not planned so much as just roughly the result of how much you need them? What's the longest you keep them uninterrupted? Can I ask them to come for a month, then not call on them again for 3 weeks? When you say you give them 145 days home, are those paid time off?
    And I'm glad that you can still get a crew together if you ban (over)drinking, I wouldn't lose my mind over a pint or glass of wine with dinner but I'd like people to remain in control of their faculties. Smoking is not a problem to us, assuming it's Tobacco.
    Also jeez, 138' is out of my budget I think, at least with Sunseeker I'm fairly certain it is, so no ocean crossings for us I see. But the English channel between the UK and mainland Europe is quite doable right? And in the Mediterranean? If I wanted to take it to the US I guess I'd need to have it transported then?
    It's an old-ish dog, it would be me taking her for walks ashore, she's quite low energy but sweet, so she'd join crew if they sat on the couch and just cuddle up. May find energy to beg for food but even then, it's looks, not jumping or whatever. So what I gather, it may be a dealbreaker for some, but certainly not all? That works for me. And we were also considering having one of those plastic lined low square planters, and put some soil in there, so she could do her business without leaving it for crew to deal with if she can't hold it until we reach shore again.
    For obvious reasons I'd prefer to be outside and in the sun while in the jacuzzi and I imagine crew may enjoy it too, but I guess if I'd go with this boat I'd need to put in 2 jacuzzi tubs? While not a dealbreaker, that is very disappointing to hear. I thought since there's a 7 foot by 7 foot area with sunbeds in the front, maybe a 7x7 jacuzzi could fit there, but I guess that may be too enthusiastic. Also 50-60% return after 5 years, that's not bad. And that does matter for the math.

    @mapism Totally, I got very good answers, I think while it brings up other questions inevitably, this has been quite helpful. Regarding your questions: It's a stunning boat imo, it fits within the budget, the company that makes it is reasonably reputable, it can go pretty quick and probably allow you to waterski behind it, it's a size that I'm told is still possible for me to learn to solo captain it, room for enough people (Or at least, I thought so) but not too large where it feels you won't use a chunk of the boat space. I don't want to sail and it's one of the few boats I spent a day on to experience them and this one felt better than the others. Sorry if my intentions aren't clear, that's because well, they aren't that clear to me either. Right now I'd think of going around the coast line of europe, French/Portuguese/Spanish/Italian/Greek coasts but in 2 years we may want to travel the US or the Caribbean via boat, hence the ocean question. It's mostly just about having a relatively flexible boat that can be used several ways and be enjoyable during usage. A lot of our family and friends vacation and/or live spread across Europe and there's a lot of interesting real estate opportunities, so I imagine we may pick up a friend or family member or client on for example the French coast and take them to where another friend/family member lives or the location of a potential project. Idk, it's been a dream longer than it's actually been an option so it's not all set in stone yet.
    But honestly, the most important thing, is cost. I need the boat to cost less than €4,500,000 new one time and below €1,200,000 a year. The one time payment we can put down goes up as we wait of course but we don't want to wait super long. A plan delayed often becomes a plan cancelled and neither of us are really into that idea. But if you have a suggestion of a new boat that would be equal but cheaper or better I'm very open to hearing it of course! And yeah I might regret it, a day is hardly enough to get a true feeling how it does for a season. But I'm open to try and charter a different boat for a day or weekend and see how it feels if you've got a good suggestion. But with the 74' Predator being ~$3.5-4m I don't know how much bigger there is to go with new boats. Anyway, thanks!

    Thank you all, sorry if I ended up repeating myself here and there, I tried to answer each of you individually (Except salty).
  8. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    The point is not using the calculator but to do your own using all the line items and expenses.

    A Predator is a great boat for making short runs, spending a few days, but it's not a boat I'd choose for three months. You talk about space for a Jacuzzi, but there's no flybridge. Not thinking Jacuzzi, just not enough outdoor space or separate gathering spaces. If I'm going to spend extended time, I want a flybridge, bow space, cockpit space and the Predator only has the bow space. It does have very nice bow seating.

    Go to the Sunseeker web site and compare the 74 Predator to the 76 Yacht and you'll see the huge difference in usable space. Now the other difference is the Predator is a faster boat. However, the Predator has much less usable space. Predator and Yacht are names Sunseeker uses.

    Another issue for you to think about is transporting a RIB so you can take the dog to shore and do other things. Generally in boats this size it's done on the stern platform. Some boats have garage options but that takes away the crew cabin on some.

    Our longest time of crew on boat is normally 6 weeks, but has been up to 10 or 12 weeks. Our crew is all employed by us full time so paid for all days including those at home. Those are PTO.

    Nothing wrong with transporting to the US or to the South Pacific or elsewhere for a year or two. We transported a boat home from Italy last fall. Even at 116', it wasn't a passage making boat.

    Our alcohol rule is no consumption within 10 hours before a work shift and none while on duty.
  9. CivVic

    CivVic New Member

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    I do see what you mean, the 76' Yacht (Bit of a weird product line name, they are the Yacht yachts, but okay) does seem more spacious, And it doesn't seem that much slower. I assume that a flybridge is far higher priority and I'm focusing on the wrong area? Because I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. You have far more experience on extended journeys clearly, so that at the very least makes me want to charter a 76' Yacht to try. Hope there's one available nearby.
    It does look like the speed gains aren't super significant so if the 76 feels more spacious that is definitely worth considering.
    I'm fairly certain the boat has storage in the back that can hold 2 jetskis or a RHIB, so that does seem useful. And with the amount of people we're planning to cap the boat at I think we could lose a crew cabin, since there's 4 state rooms.
    Also, much respect for how you treat your crew, at least from a pay point of view, so if I wanted FT staff for the boat I'd be looking at ~36K a month (base wages) for a good captain, a mate and a cook regardless of how much we'd actually use them?

    I misunderstood the goal of linking the calculator, but I will meld it with my Excel sheet if there's costs I've overlooked, but right now it is looking to be about 1m a year which is significant but within budget. And I actually think it could be good for business so I imagine it would end up overall costing quite a bit less on the year despite not doing charters. Though I'd rather apply that as a rebate after the fact than add it into the calculations. The fact your 116' wasn't a passage boat does really bring home how very much this 74'/76' may be seaworthy, but certainly not oceanworthy.
    Regarding alcohol, your rule seems fair, and clearly crew can be okay with that, so that's very handy to know. Thanks again!

    Gosh, now I have so much more researching to do, I thought I had it figured out, at least the boat. Not that I mind, I'd rather rethink before the purchase than regret it after, especially with how fierce the depreciation is year 1.
    JadePanama likes this.
  10. bernd1972

    bernd1972 Senior Member

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    Concerning your crewing costs please keep in mind that a fully employed crew member or captain costs different (considerably lower) that having a freelance captain full time based on his daily rates. Reason is: If your captain is basically self-employed he has to calculate his fees based on the assumption that he´ll have like 15 paid days per month to earn his money (during the season) if he´s lucky. Rest is administrative stuff, acquiring clients, travelling to and from jobs.
    Having a full long-term employment is something completelly different for crew or a captain.They can plan with their income with less hassle and therefor can charge somewhat less. There´s allways enough captain or crew stuff to do on a 70+ft boat to keep them busy even if not cruising. Cleaning, maintenance, administrative stuff, yard time supervision, etc.
  11. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    You might try a projection about your own usage expectations... and then compare the cost of occasional chartering to full ownership.

    -Chris
  12. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Hard to give you a specific suggestion, also because I'm not up to speed with prices of new boats in that size bracket. But based on your comments, I would agree with olderboater hint that a flybridge might be better suited for your wishes than a Predator (or similar) boat.
    Thinking of sub-80 feet flybridges, probably the Sanlorenzo SL78 would be my preference, but I have no idea of how it compares pricewise to the Sunseeker - though I wouldn't be surprised if she'd be dearer because, well, because it's better, in one word.
    Anyhow, there are plenty of sub-80' flybridges around, both new and used, so you can literally spend days just browsing the internet for them.

    Just be aware that if crossing an ocean on the boat's bottom is something you're interested in, you must forget speed and move into a totally different category of boats, but again, olderboater suggestion of transporting the thing is a good one.