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Sea Trial; It went well, then it didn't. AITAH?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Cpt Sous-Leau, Jun 20, 2024.

  1. Cpt Sous-Leau

    Cpt Sous-Leau Member

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    We got the boat going, it fired up quick, no smoke, good water flow each side. Gen fired up fast too, and wasn't working under full AC and other loads. Shifts smooth, and engages without drama. We eased out of the harbor and did fine in no wake, everything working well. Settled in at 65PSI oil pressure both engines, and stable at 180F on the temps. Things were going great! Soon to be a yachet owner.

    We got out into open water, carrying half fuel and half water, 4 people on board, no isenglass on the fly. About as min wind and weight load as possible. 87F, 66RH, winds 7-9 out of the SW. I've got 1350HP on two D12 TAMD Volvos on tap with 17" props. I don't know the pitch, but they are factory props.

    I advanced the throttles, no black smoke, the turbos start doing their job and give us a nice push. We get going at 1800RPM, and it's all smooth, making about 8.8kts. Hmmm, that's a bit low I think? I get approval from the captain, and push it all the way up WOT. We don't get much bow rise, which I'm used to on my 38' twin Yanmars, but maybe this is different. Keep pushing all the way to the stops. Still, not much bow rise, or drop at all. Just a diff of maybe 10deg. This doesn't seem right.

    I've got a digital RayMarine suite with radar, depth, temps, environs(whatever?) and speed. Digitals tachs and analog engine gauges. I start trimming, up, down, up, back down, finding the sweet spot. The trim tabs aren't doing much to the ride of the boat, hardly any change in ride angle.

    Top out, full bore, all she's got: 2046RPM, and 11.6Kts. I - am - PISSED.

    The captain 'takes over'. He can't do any better than I did. We turn around for a pass opposite direction, and get basically the same thing. 2049RPM and 11.7Kts. I - am - PISSED.

    I did my diligence and got the factory numbers, and also some real world reports. It should do 2300min at WOT, max is 2375. With ave load, we should be doing at least 16Kts, and more like 20. The broker is talking about cleaning the hull and props, and old gas, and maybe fuel filters are dirty, plenty of excuses, but no more speed to be had.

    I told him this was a rejection of the boat, based on **** performance. He's going to haul it, clean up the bottom, clean the props, repl the fuel filters, and we'll try again. So, what min RPM and speed should I demand? Boat and trans, engines have 220 or less hours. It's not overloaded, we're at 1100' elevation, no isenglass in the fly, the engine look and sound perfect. But - this is a deal breaker for me.

    Ideas, thoughts, opinions? Am I way out of line to be asking this tub to do better than 12Kts WOT?
  2. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    The speed is one thing, the bigger issue is you are only getting 2046 RPM when you should get 2300 MINIMUM. Houston we have a problem.
  3. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    D12’s with 17” props? I don’t think so.
  4. Cpt Sous-Leau

    Cpt Sous-Leau Member

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    Maybe 16.5"? The broker doesn't know for sure but he thinks they are 17". We will know for sure when it gets hauled. There's no record of prop change from mfg, so it's whatever came on the boat from Carver.
  5. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    No. You’re going in the wrong direction.
  6. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    If it’s a Carver with 675 hp D12 power it’s probably got ZF 1.75:1 gears. Carver prop spec is 29x32. I don’t know what boat you’re on. I’m guessing.

    But I would expect my broker to know.
  7. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    Probably not old gas in a D12. Certainly fuel filters might benefit from a change.

    But the haul it/clean it thing is indeed a thing. You do need to make Volvo's rated RPM (plus a little) at WOT. Were it me, I'd be aiming for 2350 at WOT -- and at 100% load if those engines have instrumentation that tells you load.

    Whatever speed you get is whatever speed you get. And then you back down to cruising RPMs where you have a bit of choice about speed vs. fuel consumption vs. noise vs. handling.

    FWIW, every time we've done a sea trial, the survey came first... which included a haul out and at least a power wash... before going for (being taken for?) the ride.

    220 or less engine hours? Basically a new boat? Or a dock queen that's been sitting for years?


    Sounds much more likely than 17".

    -Chris
  8. Cpt Sous-Leau

    Cpt Sous-Leau Member

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    Carver 56 Voyager.
    OK, it's clear I got the prop size way wrong. I'm going to need to get it hauled and look at it. We are in the middle of the survey. The in-water survey was yesterday, and we were supposed to haul it at 2pm. The lift op was unavail so we did the sea trial first as we had to run the engines to get oil samples.

    Bottom line, I'm going to reject the boat if the speed isn't near 17Kts. The rest of the fleet can do it, I better be able to do it unless something is way out of whack.
  9. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    You should also be checking the shaft rotation while on the hill. Cutlass bearings can swell and bind, causing you a few hundred RPM. Ive seen it happen.
  10. Cpt Sous-Leau

    Cpt Sous-Leau Member

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    We are going to have a close look at those too. I had one go bad on my Sea Ray, and it was noticable. Lucky we got to it before it scored the shaft. I repl both while we were on dry.
  11. rtrafford

    rtrafford Senior Member

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    Good. Check the rudder posts, too, while you're at it. Well overlooked and neglected. Curious that your start up/idle temp was 180. Seems like 165-170 would be right. Get a heat gun to your surveyor for the next sea trial if he doesn't already have one in hand.

    Gauges could be electric and therefore not pure. Always want to have a set of mechanical gauges at the helm if possible.
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I ve never run one of these but pretty much any planning / semi planning boat with twin 675hp should easily cruise at 20kt…. Especially a lighter carver. Heck my heavy 53 hatt cruises 17kts on twin 435s 6CTAs

    first thjng i would do is ask the seller to have a diver clean the bottom and running gear. This is most likely cause of such lack of performance. Whenever I ve done sea trials whether as a buyers or sellers captain, I made sure a diver cleaned the boat within a few days. On the seller side it s no brainer. You want the bait to perform. On the buyer side, you don’t waste time and efforts if the boat is too dirty to perform

    tight cutlass bearings may indeed cause RPM losses but not that bad. I ve seen boats with props you couldn’t turn by hand reaching close to rated RPM

    also, check the trim tabs and make sure they work. Easy to look at at the dock. Some boats will struggle to get on plane without trim tabs so you could have a combination of dirty boat and non functioning trim tabs

    at this point I would not spend another dime on a haul out or additional survey until a second sea trial has shown the boat is within a couple of hundreds rpm and few knots.

    The gen issue, minor in comparison, could be as simple as duty Racors and secondaries but it could also be caused by something more serious. Did it hunt when loads were turned on?

    PS: this is why for every boat I ve bought or been involved in the purchase of as a captain, I have always instead on a short sea trial before survey to make sure the boat is worth surveying. That goes in the contract.
  13. Cpt Sous-Leau

    Cpt Sous-Leau Member

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    Let me clarify a bit. The schedule was: wet survey in the slip. Sea Trial. Haul out, dry survey. The wet survey part went great, the few things we found were agreed to fix before sale. Then, the haul out called and cancelled due to illness. We were still on for the sea trial. I'm in the middle of the survey, and this is when the sea trial went Tango Uniform.

    I asked when I gave the deposit if we could take the boat out for a ride, and the seller said no to that until the survey was done. Maybe he knew something, maybe not, but it didn't happen. The broker has never moved this boat under its own power. The seller is 85 and in bad health. Anyway, he didn't want people moving his boat until it was time for the survey. I'm $1300 into the survey right now, and another $300 due after the dry check. It HAS to be hauled to clean the bottom. I might find half or more of the bottom paint missing. While I'm a cert scuba diver, and have done that kind of stuff before, there is no way I'm going under that boat with a scrub brush, and get funky. No - way. I have no idea what the cost would be, or if the seller would even allow it.

    I will report back after the haul out on Tue and new sea trial. I've advised the broker by email that if it doesn't make 2300 min RPM and about 17kts on plane, we're done and it's rejected.
  14. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    When a seller is presented with a contract/offer and deposit with a pre survey sea trial as a condition, if he refuses you can bet that s because he knows the boat is not going to perform.

    only $300 for a short haul? That’s dirt cheap. Where is the boat? Down here it’s at least $20 a foot for a short haul. Plus the pressure wash but if the running gear is dirty, they re going to charge you extra to scrape it.

    Do you have both a hull surveyor and engine surveyor?

    i hope it works out for you.
  15. ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    The Powerboat Guide says cruise is 24-24 kts. I suspect that's a typo, though, maybe with 675s in the 560 I'd WAG more like 20-22 kts for typical cruise.

    -Chris
  16. SkipJay

    SkipJay New Member

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    Had a friend with this same boat / same engines. It would cruise in the low 20's. Not sure of WOT.
  17. DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    See my first post above, you should be focused more on WOT RPM than speed. Lots of things will affect speed (wind, current, weight, bottom condition, props, etc). But your engines should still make full rated RPM or they are overloaded. Now, if they make full rated RPM and the speed of the boat is too low to meet your desires that’s another thing. You mentioned rejecting the boat if it doesn’t make 17 knots. Are you suggesting you will buy it if it does make 17+ but does not reach full rated RPM?
  18. Mike Moser

    Mike Moser New Member

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    I operate a 56 Carver With D12's. 1800 RPM's will get you the 22 to 24 kts. WOT at 2350 is a solid 30 kts with the boat all dialed in.
  19. abfish

    abfish New Member

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    Seems like it would behoove an owner or broker to run an abbreviated sea trial a few days before the real sea trial. Why sea trial a boat that won't turn rated rpm's?
    lobo and motoryachtlover like this.
  20. boatpoor

    boatpoor Active Member

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    There's a nice looking 53 for sale in Bradenton, advertised by a reputable broker, if this deal doesn't work out.