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Cat 3412 1997 problems

Discussion in 'Engines' started by jim schorn, Jul 14, 2023.

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  1. jim schorn, Jul 16, 2023
    #21
    jim schorn

    jim schorn New Member

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    thanks for going thru it.
    1. Oil level never down. Possibly over filled it but don’t remember was last December
    2. Correct oil is black but not thick or sludgy. The oil stick had some sludge for sure.
    3. Rust on the metal parts under the valve cover. Showed a video to someone of it and they said pretty bad not lite rust. As far as being vented it has a silver cap the size of a soda can with a 2 inch hose coming out of it going to a small air sep then to another hose out the other side.
    4. Expansion tank and recovery tank at normal levels and fluid looks clean
    5. Correct raw water pump leaked onto belt which shot water around but not horribly. Air seps did not receive direct water just wonder if the vacuum from them breathing drew it in
    6. Engine does turn over with starter just seems slow. Won’t start. Could be the rust? I’m not sure
    7. I did not try barring over both engines to see if ones harder then the other

    ‘thanks
  2. DOCKMASTER, Jul 16, 2023
    #22
    DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Per earlier posts from several folks; have you checked the port batteries with a meter? Did you try your emergency parallel?
  3. jim schorn, Jul 16, 2023
    #23
    jim schorn

    jim schorn New Member

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    Yes. Checked batteries they checked out. Parcel switch is always on so I tried both with it off. Same result. Starboard fired right off. Port turned extremely slow
  4. jim schorn, Jul 16, 2023
    #24
    jim schorn

    jim schorn New Member

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    I wish I could post a short video to show under the valve cover but can’t seem to figure out how to post it
  5. DOCKMASTER, Jul 16, 2023
    #25
    DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Bummer, was hoping something easy for you. Are your starter motors easy to get at? Perhaps swap strb to port for a quick test? Or as Ralph suggested, use a bar and compare turning effort from port to stbd.

    Not related to your current issue but why would you leave the parallel switch on all the time? That defeats the purpose of having an emergency parallel. With the switch on, if one bank fails it will pull the other one down with it. Suggest you leave this switch off for normal operation.
  6. jim schorn, Jul 17, 2023
    #26
    jim schorn

    jim schorn New Member

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    I got the boat a year ago and was like that so I just left it. I will definitely make the change. Thanks
  7. Pascal, Jul 17, 2023
    #27
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Indeed don’t run with the parallel switch always on as it will mask a failing battery and leave you stranded.

    same with running dual racors with both filters on line. Bad habit but very common.

    you can’t upload a video here, only pictures. Put it on YouTube and post the link
  8. ranger58sb, Jul 17, 2023
    #28
    ranger58sb

    ranger58sb Senior member

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    If the parallel switch is always on, on when you checked port batteries... you may have been getting a reading from the combined banks instead of just port.

    -Chris
  9. Capt Ralph, Jul 17, 2023
    #29
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    If the parallel switch is always on, the solenoid windings would be fried by now.
  10. Pascal, Jul 17, 2023
    #30
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Some boats use solenoids to parallel the batteries ( Hatteras for instance) but many others use battery switches which can be left on. Not a good idea indeed
  11. boatpoor, Jul 17, 2023
    #31
    boatpoor

    boatpoor Active Member

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    Is that possibly a series/parallel switch? They were popular in trucks for many years to series the batteries for starting but switch back to parallel for charging off the 12 volt alternator as soon as the starter switch is released. I've never seen one on a boat.
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2023
  12. DOCKMASTER, Jul 17, 2023
    #32
    DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    Pretty common to have a basic parallel switch. I have one on my boat and had one on my previous boat as well. A simple battery type ON-OFF switch is all it takes. Normal operation would be OFF and the P/S batteries are kept isolated from each other. If you lose an alternator or batteries on one side you flip the switch to on for emergency starting from other side.
  13. boatpoor, Jul 18, 2023
    #33
    boatpoor

    boatpoor Active Member

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    Yes I also have a parallel switch on my boat but I'm wondering if the OP is referring to a series parallel switch which operates every time an engine starts.
  14. Pascal, Jul 18, 2023
    #34
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I have never seen that on a boat and don’t see the point. It s just one more potential failure point. Redundancy is critical on a boat so if you have 24v system, you put two batteries in series for each engine and you re done. No need to complicate things. Alternator and starter will both be 24 v anyway.
  15. Capt Ralph, Jul 18, 2023
    #35
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Ocean Yacht and others boat mfgs do it.
    The whole boat is 12volt.
    Chargers are 12v.
    Generator starters are 12v.
    All alternators are 12v.
    The big main engine starters are 24Volt.

    Two G31 batteries in a parallel 12V bank are twisted by a fancy solenoid setup and makes a serial 24V bank for starting.
    When the engine is running, batteries go back to a 12V bank for the house and I think, gen-set(S).

    It saves weight and keeps lots of cost down.
    There is no DCv back up or redundancy.

    Delco made a tall bakelite solenoid with 4 battery connects just for this task.
    https://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays_1119844.asp

    I have also witnessed ugly rigs made with single solenoids. Not pretty.
    Got a headache just trying to figure out this bird-nest, the first time.

    For me; I would find room and ad more batteries.
    Separate them all out for their task, (House, gen-sets, electronics, mains) and now have a couple of banks for any back-up need.

    I do hope this is not installed this way for the OP.
    You do need to disconnect the batteries for testing.

    Did he say what mfg/brand boat he has?
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2023
  16. Pascal, Jul 18, 2023
    #36
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Typical penny pinching by builders.

    when I repowered my hatteras 53, I went the other way. Cummins was charging about $1500/2000 per engines for 24 volts factory reman so i got 12v engines with an 8D per engine but used 24 v for the house. I don’t like 12 v house on anythjng over 40’. Especially for the windlass.

    only downside for now is that I can’t charge the house bank with the engines but we always run the gen anyway.

    I could probably run a set of wires from the each engine 8 Ds to each of the two house 8Ds with a parallel switch if we loose the gen. But if we loose the gen, we we not staying out without air con anyway
  17. Capt Ralph, Jul 18, 2023
    #37
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    You can imagine my Frankenstein designs; I'm still mostly 32V with 24v for the Inverter, windlass, 10Kw radar, Master head & 12v for the gen-sets and electronics.
    14 Batteries on board.
    So much for 32V weight savings.
  18. DOCKMASTER, Jul 19, 2023
    #38
    DOCKMASTER

    DOCKMASTER Senior Member

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    I do hope the OP posts more when he finds the issue or eliminates possible sources from being the problem.

    I was wondering if the rust could simply be from condensation and moisture and sitting through the winter in the NE?
  19. jim schorn, Jul 20, 2023
    #39
    jim schorn

    jim schorn New Member

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    I pulled all 4 valve covers. All show rust. Cat mechanic told me spray it down multiple times with pb blaster. Says since it’s not hydro locked to put it back together and try to fire her off. Thoughts?

    I also pulled the valve cover off the other engine. Looked perfect. So not sure it’s from being in the northeast winter. Cat mechanic thinks salt water entered someway and boiled off which caused the steam to rust the parts. He said if it fires and runs I need to then find the cause . I will keep u posted. Thanks
  20. Pascal, Jul 20, 2023
    #40
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    At the very least change the oil and filter before trying to fire it up.

    I can’t help wondering if firing it up is a good idea without further testing. Apparently you got away with some kind of water ingestion once but this may be pushing your luck.

    pressure testing the cooling system is pretty easy at least on the coolant side. When I had our 16V2000s rebuild they pressurized the coolant overnight to make sure it was all good before starting.

    I don’t think salt water can get in but could be wrong. Aftercoolers maybe ? Are they fresh or raw water cooled on the 3412s? I don’t remember.

    and send oil and coolant samples to a lab to know what s in your oil and if any metal shows up
    Capt Ralph likes this.
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