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M T f U! I'll do it myself.

Discussion in 'Engines' started by cleanslate, Dec 24, 2022.

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  1. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

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    Had J & T come out to go over my Johnson and Towers DD 471ti engines. Port motor just needed rack tune up adjustment and governor adjustment, which I now have learned kind of go hand in hand. Sure didn't take him long as I watched and was quite easy.
    That being said the J and T tech got that spot on ( the last good two cycle DD mechanic they've got). All good with the port motor. Fires right up when cold, little smoke etc. runs well at all load rpms.

    Starboard motor needed help. Got a little water in to the fuel and then into the engine during my first sea trial back when I bought the boat six years ago. That shortened its life span for sure, but overall six years and many hours latter she did well, but now she is tired and needs an over haul. BTW, my engine hour are unknown. Meters were both broke when I bought the boat. And still are. I need help on that, how they work what do the hook up to etc. They are old Hobbs meters. 12 volt.

    Ok, please work up a quote for an In-Frame overhaul . Pretty much impossible to get the motor out through my one 24'' x 36'' entry door which is on the opposite side of the motor. And both fuel tanks are 200 gallon saddle tanks hull side out next to the motors, I'm not cutting the hull open to get them(fuel tanks or motors) out. No way.

    Anyway they come back with a number of $30k and to tell me MTU does not have the cylinder kits or connecting rods (if needed) etc. and not sure when they would be in stock .

    I put a call into J & T and have not heard back. I suppose it's to much for the one two cycle DD tech they've got? Could be , he was up in the numbers.
    It's very apparent they do not want to do the job and MTU is not going to support us old Detroit two cycle owners anymore , IMO. This sure has lit a fire under my $@! Intestate-mcbee and aftermarket here I come...

    So, I'm going to do it myself. My mechanical skills are not bad and I'm running high on engine self confidence.
    Lol, it can be that hard to do!:rolleyes: I've learned quite a bit from many over time on these old Detroits. Captain Ralph along with others on here have helped me a lot with questions and concerns. There is also a great Youtube series video of a DD471 marine overhaul by Dangar Marine that has been extremely informative.

    Here's what I've got going for me, I found a great Detroit shop with the help of Chesapeake 46, a few hours from the boat to test , check, repair if needed the cylinder head etc. They will also supply me the parts and assist me on proper liners , bearings etc. They will also offer help over the phone/face time .

    Second I have found a retired J and T mechanic near me , who has helped me already get project underway . He and I are going to do the timing , rack and governor setting at the end.

    Third, I have an original 1984 In-Line 71 service manual to tell me darn near everything I need to know . I've been reading that over multiple times.

    Lastly , I've invested in all the proper tools and hoists / lifting materials needed .

    I'm hoping to do the job all parts and tools needed for $10-$15 K.
    I'm not in a rush and expect this to take me all winter into early spring .
    I'll send some photos soon. Don't expect a great '' Pascal" production, lol, I'll be to busy.
    Wish me luck!
  2. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    The J&T guy was not kidding about the part supply issue.
    Seems MTU has contracted lots of it's part mfg in China.
    I don't need to explain the China issues (Do I?).
    On top of way behind in schedule, what later MTU liners were used, had problems and were recalled. Some of these still waiting for replacement parts.

    J&T, MTU, FLDDA and other "factory" shops are not going to use non MTU parts.
    They have no say over these parts and can not warranty them.

    Don't listen to the talking heads on other web sites, McBee has had Detroit part issues also.
    Including liners.

    Here is your #1 problem;
    71 use dry liners. You may think that is great but one thing, there still has to be a correct fit between the liner and the block.
    If there is an error, this fit is achieved by honing the block and installing the new liner by measuring tools & feel for proper fit.
    At the factory, 3 different sizes were available for use (Standard, #1, #2). On the block top, near the lungs, a stamp notes what the factory used.
    The replacement liners OD are in a set A thru F in size. Ordering a stock size will not work.
    So, you have to have the block tore down,
    inspect the block,
    examine the block for liner to block chatter and wear/damage,
    correct if needed by honing,
    measure for the correct sized liner,
    THEN order the liners and wait.
    & wait & wait & wait,,,
    There is no standard liner.

    Unless somebody pored sand in the crank case, it is hard to damage a straight-71 crank shaft.
    It usually checks good and std bearings are re-used.
    A new head and turbo, rebuild the blower * and that completes the in-frame for another 4000+ hours.

    * That $30k estimate may have also included a new blower, cam bearings, cams, new gear sets, shaft seals, pumps and time on a Dyno.

    So, let us re-think your needs, what is wrong with this motor exactly?

    IMO, purchase a new long block or a low hour RTO.
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2022
  3. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

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    Takes forever for it to start up I have to crank it forever. Obviously the colder it is out the more I have to crank I do all the tricks holding down the stop start button and what not.

    Once it gets started it smokes a ton like it’s flooded with diesel fuel grey white smoke smells like fuel.

    Once it gets running up to normal operating temperature it’s smokes very very lightly at idle. But not under load.

    He went over the rack on this and made some adjustments also , the injectors are only three or four years old since they were replaced.

    The engine fires right up once the engine is warm.
    Even after an overnight in the summertime starts right up the next morning probably cause she’s still a little bit warm from the run the day before.

    I sent you a video of it a while back if you remember which you looked at I have the low profile 471 ti with M95 injectors…
    Don’t know the exact horsepower but it’s somewhere in the range between 300 and 350hp. That’s asking a lot for a 471 ti.
    I also don’t know the last time either engine was overhauled it’s unknown rumors have it that it was done once before by a previous owner.

    J&T did not include a new blower, turbo ,exhaust elbow or anything else of that nature.
    Nothing for the cam except main bearings.

    They did include a new cylinder head new valves new injectors etc . At $8k..

    i’m assured the shop has the liners in stock and/or has sources to get them this is their main thing rebuilding Detroit Diesel engines.
    The shop was gonna send me different size liners for me to fit and try so I could pick the proper one I get what you’re saying about the liners I have and have been researching that.
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2022
  4. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Anybody looked into the lung yet to inspect the piston, rings and cylinder walls yet?
  5. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

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    Yes the guy from J and T Open one up and then he had me barr the engine over while he looked in there and it didn’t look good at all tons of carbon buildup on the cover of the inspection port
  6. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Carbon?? What else did he see? Glazed cylinder walls?
  7. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Tell me about the new injectors;
    What problems were you having to replace them?
    Did they fix that problem?

    When did this cold starting issue start?

    How much sump oil is consumed?

    Under load, matches the performance of the other engine?

    How wet was this carbon? Oil or fuel?

    I know we have gone over a few things before, I can not remember your details from before. To many projects and hootch have gone by since we last chatted.
    Please excuse me if you have answered these questions before.

    First, I know I have discussed this many times before to all; New injectors mean squat to me.
  8. boatpoor

    boatpoor Active Member

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    I've used lots of parts from Interstate Mcbee and never got any bad ones but if you order liners from them, be sure and give them the actual bore diameter of the cylinders and not just the stamp number off the old liners because they don't always match up. ( a "2" stamp Detroit and a "2" stamp Interstate Mcbee may be as much as .003" difference) And make sure you measure each of them individually against the bores as you install them.
    cleanslate likes this.
  9. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I've also seen egg shaped bores......so be sure to measure the bore in 3 different places.
  10. maldwin

    maldwin Senior Member

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    I have always thought 671 Ns, and 871 Ns were bullet proof, great engines. Might this thread indicate that it is no longer wise for a mechanical idiot like me, who will always call in professional help, to buy a boat with these engines unless I want to repower?
  11. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Relax
    71s are bullet proof.
    When set up correctly, they are near idiot proof.
    There continues to be factory support.

    But China was making 71 parts for MTU.
    China has problems
    China is a problem.

    India also makes parts for Mtu as other world wide places.
    I look forward to other places stepping up and replacing China.

    Now, 2 stroke Detroit designs are over 90 years old. Other than DDEC, no other upgrades have been made in over 50 years.
    This dependable design is installed in the greatest numbers and many, many are still in use. They will be available parts and support.

    Although most parts are interchangeable from a later engine to one made during WWII, It is a pile of technology not compatible or interchangeable to any other engine mfg or family.
    Sadly, in this narrow vertical market, supply chain is going to be slow, support is getting smaller.
    In the big picture of all the other mfg's and their offered models, the old Detroit is in a smaller share every day.
    I typed there will always be parts and support, this market will be getting smaller also.
    It is there, parts and support always will be, just patience is required when dealing with it.

    When shopping for your next boat, engine options are to be a concern no matter what mfg.
    This should not be a shocker, even some Cat engines you want to run away from.
    But what were new engines from Cummins a few years ago, their 8.3 is a great engine and cheap now days.

    Old DDC, Cat, Cummins & VP engines require a through conversation with your heart considering all aspects of life and future of the boat you are shopping for.
    I luv some engine models from all mfg's, I'll never be scared of a DDC 71.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2022
    T.T. likes this.
  12. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    By the way;
    Was talking to my Volvo Penta shop the other day.
    They have boats around Jax waiting for parts.
    Some for near a year waiting for VP parts.
  13. SeaEric

    SeaEric YF Historian

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    Consider adding engine heaters for an easier cold start-up. I have 250w pad heaters on my 1966 8v53's. 24/7 365. That's just enough to make the difference. YMMV.
  14. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I enabled my block heaters Friday morning in prep for the weekend. I left the saloon deck hatch above the engines open also.
    Last check yesterday afternoon, Saloon nice and toasty even with ER vents un-covered.
    Not near as bad as the rest of the country, we were down to 25 last night for over 6 hours.

    Mechanical temp gauges do rise just a bit. Expansion tank recovery bottles do fill a couple inches more.
    After sitting for several weeks, we usually start quickly with one puff of smoke and clear after that, Then nicely.
    Before our block heaters, in any COLD weather, we would smoke a bit and idle after several minutes.
    Were around 40° outside (or last nights 25°) , I can just touch those starters and it would be like cranking them up warm,,, well they are warmed up.

    We use 1000W immersed Hot-starts with thermostat controls.
  15. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    If Cleanslate has fuel wet lungs from a dribbling nozzle, he will still smoke a bit but they should start faster.
    Un-burned fuel blown into the exhaust manifold takes a while to burn out and stop smoking.
    IMO, where his carbon build up is coming from.
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Bulletproof yes, but have seen lots blow up because a cooling or oil hose blew and by the time operator figured out something was wrong, it was too late. They're dinosaurs, noisy, leak oil, smell, smoke on start up. Parts are hard to get for rebuild parts and have been for a few years and mechanics knowledgable on them also hard to find. IMO, they've seen their day. The computer controlled diesels, the computers make up for a lot of issues, catch things early enough to reduce power, etc. The MAN common rails are REALLY nice engines, quiet, smooth, fuel efficient, powerful and would be my choice. Cats would be second if you're sticking with C18's, C32s but much noisier than MAN's. I am NOT an MTU fan.
  17. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Agree on all
    But many of us can not afford these fancy MAN, and Cats you mention and have to stay with the ole mechanical engines.

    I have also witnessed the aftermath of a later 8.3 ending up getting shoveled into a scrap pile from a blown oil hose.
    Did not take long even with an ECM.
    T.T. and cleanslate like this.
  18. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

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    Yes glazed and in poor condition.
  19. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

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    Cold start problems started 4 years ago.
    Slowly getting worse over time .
    I thought new injectors would help or fix the smoke / slow start problems..
    Didn’t change a thing .
    I’ve just kept living with it.

    Once warmed up smoke is gone under any load rpm . Both perform very well. 2500 + for both motors.
    I never run them that high. It makes me cringe . I don’t want to push 42 year old engines hard. Both blocks are stamped “79” or 1979? Something like that .

    Got to admit they look like crap, need a paint job, but run like beasts . They can go all day long anywhere from 1400 RPMs to 2200 RPMs.

    Carbon on the inspection cover was hard , black , needs to be worked off.
    Was not wet to me.

    all day run at 2000 RPMs (10hrs) both will burn 2 quarts of oil.

    all day at 1600 RPMs (10hrs)both less oil say a quart each .

    Small trips around Cape May whale watching, party cruise, little to no oil used. Run time 3 or 4 hrs at various RPMs.
  20. cleanslate

    cleanslate Senior Member

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    SeaEric ! Hello..hope all is well.
    Pad ? Like an electric blanket? Made for motors ? Or one actually for the bed.

    The boat came with two block heaters in each motor. One in the block side and one in the water manifold. None of them are in working condition.
    But I agree with you.
    I’ll have to replace them at some point but I like the idea of the warm pad instead.