European CE Rating/ Category Question

Liam, I would not take a Bavaria or a Beneteau across any body of water. These low cost, low average quality production boats are in my eyes plastic phantastic and no serious sailboats for open waters. But in for example a Hallberg-Rassy of 42 ft to 64 ft, I would feel pretty comfortable doing so.

And if I would have the choice of riding a storm in a full planning boat up to 80 ft or in a Nordhavn full displacement boat up to the same size, I would honestly prefer the Nordhavn. Any round bilge displacement boat will make You seasick without stabilisation, if encountering crosswaves. But this is not particularly unsafe. And I do not believe a planning power boat is better in rough seas than a high quality sailboat or a heavy full displacement boat.

A Sailboat can reduce sail area down to a reduced storm sail and if it continues into the waves instead of across, it will rock but it will survive, as long as You can keep the water out of the boat.

Gail force storms are a different story. We have lost a cargo vessel in the sixties during a gail force storm on the Atlantic, when my father was still running the business. The only surviver was the chief engineer. He was found barely alive several days later, strapped onto a floating container. Nothing else was ever found from the ship or its crew. Mother nature can be merciless, as it can be seen almost daily at the moment.

God save all sailors on the seven seas.

I agree, my remark was made to the fact, that many sailors do with these boats, and others do the same with low cost catamarans build in South Africa as Leopard etc.
Also a motor boat in running at 25 knots in flat seas has the same stress, a sailboat has a in Force 6 if not more.
That is why motor boats by Bavaria where keen to break when the German production boat builder entered the motor boating scene in mid 2000s.

Also Bavaria is a German company, I am not devending them at all. That is low cost, low quality staff for lakes like the Lake Constance or the coastal waters around the Balerics during nice weather and during summer. Bavaria is widespread in the low cost charter market. They sell via the price.

The planning boats of my children are made of Alloy (actually Alustar) with multiple Volvo IPS drives. Well built Dutch semi custom boats and the professionally maintained engines and IPS drives work flawless. My second daughter and her husband are using their boat only during summer in the coastal waters of the German Baltic, Denmark and Sweden. My two sons are using their boats only around the Balearics (mainly Mallorca) and only during summer and in nice weather. But at anything more than 3 ft waves, all three go only at hull speed because of comfort.

My sons and I have done some seatrails for checking the max. comfortable speed at some 5 to 6 ft waves. The boats could take it easily up to 18 - 20 Kts. But in the forward hull, it sounded like sitting in a guitar (metall hull) and at higher speeds, You had to carry a mouthguard like a boxer .

My larger CRP planning boat, due to its 200 metric ton weight, is much easier to handle in rougher seas and with its combined 10.600 BHP (4 x MTU 16V2000 M96L) it really does not care about waves. I have to admit, with glacy sea and at 41 Kts (MCP), I will be happy to come from Palma to Ibiza and back on one full tankage of nearly 40.000 Liters. But I have only very limited access to this boat. Whenever one of my children is on the island of Mallorca, the boat is occupied by them and gone. And this includes the owner cabin. They just do not take the old man serious anymore . My crew of 9 loves the boat and takes care of like it would be their own vessel.

Catamarans are a different world for me and this for sailing and power catamarans. Their behaviour in the waves is so strange for me, that the old salt neck gets seasick very easily. These corksrew type movements in the waves are nothing for an honest sailor. Sad to say but the best catamarans, as far as quality, design and performance is concerned, are made in France. Lagoon, especially the Lagoon 77 is here my favorite boat. Power catamarans are in my eyes a waste of money. If a catamaran at all, then with sails, period.

The only advantage of a 24 meter catamaran is a lot of living space.

I'm new to boating and have had many questions in line with the one posted here. To increase my understanding I've been googling the topic and evaluating the information provided and have come up with this like comparison. With automobiles, the tire ratings have different ratings for speed, traction and the like. One such scale is the UTOG which is designed to give an example of the traction for a tire in different conditions you have AAA A B and C. Likewise, there are the rating for speed. A through Y, Y having a top speed design of 186mph. The higher ratings are Z and ZR which encompasses speeds greater than 186. Using this example, I believe it is fair given the definitions of A B C and D, this is intended to mean the designer of the the vessel's that fit into any such classifications have been "designed" and tested to be suitable for the purpose of the rated Class. I've seen people sail across both the Atlantic and the Pacific in boats that were a mere 30' long with one motor and that have the classification of C. IMHO, this are skilled individuals who are risk takers but have great confidence in their skills. I am not soo skilled and, therefore, I would not attempt such a voyage no less "ALONE".

I would not any more than I would buy an H rated tired ( 130 mph) to put onto my AMG mercedes to drive at speeds in excess of 186mph and why would you ask? Because it'd be considered extremely risky. Not that the tire(s) couldn't handle the higher speed for a period of time, but, knowing that the MFR of the tire designed it to withstand the rating of H, clearly indicates this is where throw up their hands and make clear should you decide to brave it and go faster, the resulting consequences are clearly in the operators hand exclusively.

The classification is put into place as a guide. The build specifications for a vessel CE rated for an A conforms and has been tested to be able to tolerate the conditions of that rating. If someone would like to purchase a CE B rated or less yacht and put it into conditions for which it wasn't built, that's clearly up to them. As is with driving, knowledge and experience can overcome design limitations in most instances but personally myself, were I planning to do Ocean traveling outside the 200m off shore rating given to CE B rated vessels, I'd surely be looking to one rated an A for my own piece of mind. Happy Boating all...

Mod Edit: link removed.

Exert from a brokerage site...

A lot depends on the boat speed , the wave ( read wind ) speed .
And of course the direction of boat relative to waves.

I have been out in big waves , but riding parallel , ie sat in a trough or occasionally popping up on a crest and then dropping back into a trough .
It’s not the boat it was the simple fear of basically being invisible to others hidden out of sight bombing along at 26 knots reduced down from 30 to take the crests comfortably .
Bit like an aircraft in a cross wind we pointed the boat 50 miles below the N top of Corsica crossing from Italy and due to the sea ( aircraft x wind vector ) moving us as we sat in troughs we arrive by a huge vector comfortably.

Would I have wanted to go through the waves head on - Nope .

Similarly in a F 7/8 Mistral where the wind bows W to E along the Cote D Azur we have run with it and literally sat on top of one wave and surfed 60 miles , the sea Sometimes outrunning us so I speeded up to sit on top some 30 knots .

Some of the rating is stability and the ability to drain water if it’s takes on water crashing a wave .
A already top heavy by design boat with basic drains might become overbalanced.I think rather than physically test they can do some maths / calcs on that one .
So a deep V top heavy fly bridge - solid hard top class B boat might be ok in the right experienced hands in a big seas , but it failed This theoretical stability equation so they could not award it an A .

Righting moments stuff like that and the time it takes to evacuate water from the cockpit + side areas .Bearing in mind a cubic meter of water weights 1000kg .All this can be worked out sat at a computer.No need to take the thing out and use your subjectivity, or anybody else’s in a “ test “

Water tight bulkheads help too to stop water sloshing around should it find its way into the bilge(s) . Again facilitating a step up the grade .
Also my boat has metal storm shutters over the ports , used them once in 6 seasons .
^^^ More boxes ticked on the list that’s all .

In the end if it’s a tall top heavy fly bridge with all the features like massive hull glazing and forward sitting area and it’s only a B I wouldn’t worry about it .
Highly likely it’s cabinets will fly open , doors swing about , patio doors slide about , forward deck cushions end up overboard , Fly bridge cushions + loose furniture end up lost , drinks cabinet glasses empty in any thing approaching 2/3 M head on at planning speed never mind 4 M .
In a 4/5 M seas when you return to port look forwards for water / damp around the massive hull bonded windows or worse still a few spider cracks as hrs of hull flexing will take there toll on the UV degraded polyurethane sealant which has hardened off .
Also it’s bow table would have been ripped off by the 3 rd time you stuffed the bow .

Some of this is the application of general physics within design I'm most certain, however, something else I am infinitely confident in is that having an experienced captain will in sketchy conditions, outweigh any perceived or real design enhancements on any sea worthy vessel. I think on this point, everyone will agree. As I'm very green, I would go by the book, but I'm certain, many of you are well seasoned and a ton more capable than I. Happy Boating.......