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How do you avoid overloading mechanical engines?

Discussion in 'Engines' started by mapism, Dec 24, 2020.

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  1. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Interesting comments, thanks for your contribution.
    I guess the main reason why I never noticed any EGT drop with the RPM increase might have something to see with the fact that I was referring either to planing or semi-displacement boats.
    In both cases, once over the hump, the drag increases exponentially with speed, so the typical power demand (hence EGT) is bound to raise constantly with the RPM increase.
    The behaviour that you describe is probably more typical of displacement vessels, where the power demand still increases with speed, but in a more linear fashion.

    Out of curiosity, do you have any specific engine in mind for which the builder declares the higher max power at anything below the max rated RPM?
    I've seen plenty of engine charts, from several builders, and indeed in many of them (particularly the electronic ones) the max power can ALSO be produced starting from a few hundreds RPM below the max.
    But I never came across one where at max RPM the output was even slightly less than at any lower RPM.
    I'm talking of full load curves of course, not prop demand, where by definition max output=max RPM.
    On the other hand, if by "most engines reach max horsepower at a lower rpm than max rated rpm" you actually meant max RELATIVE horsepower, i.e. output per revolution, then I fully agree of course.
  2. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Getting confused now, but my Yanmar turbo diesel delivers the max 300 HP @ 3,800 RPM, the max RPM under a load however (in forward gear) should be between 3950 and 4050 RPM Max RPM with no load is governed to 4200 .
  3. MYTraveler

    MYTraveler Member

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    If you are referring to my comments, I did mean that on most diesel engines maximum horsepower is reached at an rpm lower than rated maximum horsepower.
    HP_Curve.jpg

    A google image search shows lots of examples, but this is typical. And that is why your EGT drops after you reach max power output per revolution.
  4. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Yes, I was referring to your comment.
    No idea about which engine model your graph is referred to. Judging by the RPM range, possibly some automotive stuff?

    I just re-checked several specs sheet and I still can't find, among the most popular marine diesels, a single one which at the max rated RPM doesn't produce the maximum horsepower.
    Most of the electronic ones are tuned in such way that, at full load, their max horsepower is available already before the max RPM, for instance around 2000 rpm, and then the curve remains perfectly flat up to the max 2300 rpm.
    That's what happens for instance with the Cat C9, C15, C18, C32.
    The C12 can even produce its max output starting from 1700 rpm, but it also remains flat from there all the way up to 2300 (2500 for the C9).
    Other similar examples are all the MAN CRM, MTU 2000, FPT Cursor, Cummins Quantum, VP D12/13/16... You name it, really.
    For all of them, the output at max rated rpm and 100% load is always the maximum they can produce.

    Anyway, the fact that for instance a C12 can already produce 705 hp anywhere between 1700 and 2300 rpm does not mean that you should ever use all that power at anything less than the max rpm, in a boat.
    In fact, if your prop would demand 705 hp already with the engine spinning at 1700 rpm, the engine would be able to deliver it, but such condition implies that you are pushing a way too long prop, or that the bottom is badly fouled.
    And by definition, you would be unable to increase the rpm and the boat speed further, because that's already the max output you can squeeze out of that engine.
    Now, I agree that in such condition your EGT at 1700 rpm would be even higher than in a "normal" WOT condition, i.e. 2300 rpm and 100% load.
    But this is clearly an exception, due to a wrong prop and/or other anomalies.
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  5. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Sorry, I don't have any Yanmar specs sheet, so I struggle a bit to understand what you mean.
    Got any detailed specs/curves?
  6. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    You will probably not find many or any diesel graph sheets that show RPM past max HP.
    Since boats don't coast like a car and usually have a one speed transmission, Marine engines fight uphill for every horse power.
    Max HP is the max RPM.
    It not like you see on TV when BuBa and JR hook something up to a dyno and (hold my beer) spin way beyond some crazy RPM count to show the HP curve turn counter productive.
    Next time they may use HyTest gas or bump the timing and get another 5 HP.
    When that engine is run on the street, they don't shift past max HP. That engines max rpm would be the top of the HP curve and don't run past that.
    In Norseman's comment above #42, is a small block diesel and max HP at 3800 RPM and governor max just 200 rpm more reflects just what I said. Norse could run a higher centain oil fuel and make 5 more ponies rite at 4000 Rpm. Still in spec and without a power/rpm graph.
    In techno terms, max HP @ 3800 RPM +- 200 RPM (or 5%).
    All still unlike that TV show spinning 1500 to 2000RPM past max HP.
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2020
  7. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Yes, got detailed specs but without going there:

    The Yanmar 6LP-STE is rated @ 300 HP @ 3800 RPM
    (The above model engine was manufactured in Japan, the later 6LPAs (A means the engines was made in the US, as in A merica and rated @315 HP, not because they had more horsepower, but because the inlet temperature was cooler, hence a few more horsepower)

    The Max RPM under load should be 3950 to 4050. (WOT Wide open Throttle while in gear and running in the ocean)
    Max RPM at full throttle with the transmission not engaged 4100-4200.

    To sum it up:

    They are both rated at 3,800 for MAX horsepower, but should go higher unless over-propped.
    (The rating is at a lower RPM than max RPM)
    Not sure how to define it further, but here is a link:

    https://www.yanmar.com/media/global...pulsion/catalog/Yanmar-6LPA-STP2datasheet.pdf
  8. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Norse
    It's 200RPM safety margin your referencing on your Yanmar.
    Has nothing to do with a HP curve tapering down.

    How else would you know if you were under propped.
    You prop up till the RPM just comes down off the governor.

    Your page 2 shows your graphs, And shows what I was trying to explain; why spin any more when your at max HP.
  9. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Thanks, all clarified.
    Fwiw, I fully agree with the explanations from CR.
  10. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    I was mixing it up with the torque curve, or something, under the influence last night, confusing myself..:D
  11. Capt Fred

    Capt Fred Senior Member

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    Here is how I have been using the engine performance charts, correct me if I'm wrong. For example on a 450 HP J&T 6-71 at 1850 rpm, the charts shows engine fuel consumption of 20 g/hr and the propeller fuel consumption of 10 g/hr. The way I read this is that the propeller should be consuming 10 g/hr but the engine could to loaded to 20 g/hr. So as long as you are not consuming over 20 g/hr at 1850 rpms on this engine you are not overloading the engine. Correct?
  12. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Yes and no.
    It's theoretically correct to say that you can run an engine at full load also at less than the max rated RPM, but only as long as it's a momentary condition due to some particular reason.
    For instance, while cruising at a constant 1850 rpm in a long and rather high ocean swell, you could see the real time consumption going up and down significantly, while riding the waves uphill and downhill respectively.
    But if you are cruising at 1850 with an engine whose rated max rpm is 2500 (As I recall it is on the 671, but I might be wrong), and you see that it's constantly burning the fuel that it's only supposed to burn at full load, then there is definitely something wrong.
    In fact, if at anything less than the max rated rpm the propeller is already demanding to the engine the max power that it can deliver at full load, by definition you will be unable to increase further the rpm and the speed, so you are indeed running a setup which is bound to overload the engine for some reason - typically, either too long prop or fouled hull/prop.
  13. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    We are getting off of the EGT path this thread was designed to follow (by some evil whim:D) ( And I helped).
    However, if all (ALL) are satisfied, that the topic has been answered (was anything answered?), should we open a new thread to continue with HP / Fuel / RPM / load curves??? Something that may be even more confusing with out unanimous agreement (again).
  14. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    From my part, no problem at all to use this thread also for something not so strictly EGT-related.
    Actually, even the title (and my OP) was meant to include whatever it takes to better understand and control engine load, EGT being just one of the elements to consider.
    Nothing against evil whims either, btw.
    Anyone who can't stand a bit of that, should rather steer clear from boats and boaters! :)

    PS: no objections from me also to change the title to "HP / Fuel / RPM / load curves" or anything else more appropriate.
    But I think this is something that only an admin can do.
  15. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Then we have to address Capt Fred #51 above.
  16. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    Well, I did try, in #52.
    But happy to hear any other thought you might have!
  17. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    There are other things that will increase EGT at a certain RPM besides load. Some of those may be restricted air filters or air flow (engine room vents too small), dirty fuel filters, dirty intercoolers/aftercoolers.
  18. mapism

    mapism Senior Member

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    All agreed, CJ.
    That's not so relevant vs. the question from Capt Fred, though.
    The only thing that can be safely said with regard to EGT, when talking of an engine which at 1850 rpm can burn either 10 or 20 gph (depending on propeller demand, hence load) is that EGT is bound to be significantly higher when burning 20 gph.
  19. Capt Fred

    Capt Fred Senior Member

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    Thanks guys, I got the answer I was looking for but always happy to further discuss engine performance.