Should I buy a boat with IPS drives?

I'll maybe have to rent a 12-year-old.

The "deck seal" would be the "steering seal"? And the "one behind the prop" would be the "propshaft seal"?

Would expect changing that latter would need a haul-out, too, given the drive won't tilt out of the water like with an outboard or the drive leg of an I/O...

I'm not particularly intimidated by having to haul the boat occasionally for service; we haul about once/year anyway...

OTOH, if the actual IPS service cost -- over and above the lift and other work -- is an arm and a leg, a firstborn, and a good hunting dog... then that would argue that my budget may not stand the gaff.

-Chris

Yes both would require a haul out, Your best bet for a real price would be to call your local Volvo mechanic. Let us know what you find. I think you'll be able to keep the dog.

Yeah, haven't tracked down local IPS specialists, yet...

Partly due to lock-down, partly because the Volvo-Penta dealer locator doesn't speak specifically to service for IPS (and returns some surprising, perhaps unlikely, options) and because a general area search also returns some surprising, possibly unlikely, options. And today, partly because it's a weekend. <sigh>

I get the impression that some V-P dealers only do gas, some do diesel, no hints about who does IPS. It'd be easier if I knew anyone local here who has IPS drives and can make service recommendations.

-Chris

Call Hampton Watercraft in Hampton Bays (631)728-8200. They should be able to give you an estimate, and maybe steer you to your local guy.

I had a 48ft with twin IPS600 for 3 years. It was a mixed bag, both good and bad. I wouldn't buy anything pre-2012, had multiple Volvo guys tell me that's the revision (F I think?) where they got the bugs worked out. Most pod work requires a haul out which required coordinating schedules with the boatyard and mechanic if you wanted to be back in the water quickly. I ended up changing the seals several times (haul out needed), even with line cutters installed I got fishing wire wrapped around them every 6 months or so in south FL waters. Be vigilant monitoring the pod drive oil - look for water intrusion every single time you go out. I don't think pods would be a good fit for any location with a lot of debris in the water.

I was overly paranoid with them because I had read so many horror stories. We didn't have major issues, rather lots of small ones and electric/computer issues. One key is finding a good mechanic. That's obviously true for any boat, but I think even more so for the IPS systems because there are only a few shops that really know what they are doing. We spend a lot of time in the Bahamas and I was always worried about something happening over there, needing spare parts or having to fly someone in.

I probably wouldn't buy them again in the short term because of the number of hours we plan to put on them. Not much data about rebuilds or pod boats with X thousand hours on them. However there's no denying their popularity and ease of use so maybe that will change in the future.

Thanks, guys, very useful. And I'm in touch with some Volvo/IPS folks, getting better info now... so I'll get back with factoids...

One I've learned already is that IPS600 has been discontinued. Maybe not a show stopper of itself, but another thing I'll be taking into account.

-Chris

I was eventually steered to two local Volvo-Penta servicing dealers, each with extensive IPS experience. Both have been very helpful, and I’ll try to capture salient points here… with any errors being mine, not theirs, probably from my misunderstanding or misinterpreting.

There are three different series: IPS a-f, IPS 2, and IPS 3. IPS600 would have been in the IPS a-f series, coupled with a standard D6 (5.5L) engine. At the time, D6 rated horsepower was 435. IPS 2 and IPS 3 are with engine sizes D8 and above.

The drives are described as “not very complicated” – and actually fairly robust -- they just need regular service and especially each-use monitoring for potential water intrusion. Not their fault, but I don’t yet fully understand the “a-f” thing; it might be version numbers, or it might relate to the several “campaigns” Volvo has conducted on the IPS600s over the years. Not sure if that means an “a” can become an “f” or not… or whether the “campaigns” are completely separate from the “a-f” designations. One example “campaign” was about changing the steering (I think) seals from brass (or bronze? or Nibral?) to stainless steel. I’ve not yet gotten engine serial numbers, so haven’t been able to further pin down the engines/drives in the specific candidate boats.

Oil samples (after over 20 hours service) are important during a pre-purchase mechanical survey. Recommended baselining service after that would ensure all the “campaigns” have been applied.

Drives should be serviced every 200 hours or once/year. Drive lube is changed from outside the boat (i.e., hauled, on land) in early IPS600s. The 2014 manual I have suggests IPS600 drive lube can be changed from inside the boat. Steering seals and propshaft seals should be replaced every 5 years; I think this is not factored into their typical annual “drive service.”

I hadn’t mentioned it before, but the candidate boat model that started me down this research path came with triple D6/IPS600s. I’d have thought access would be dicey; a trusted source says there’s “plenty of room” back there. I had to do a little math to get “typical” service costs from two different Volvo specialists into a (sort of) apples-to-apples comparison. Looks like their annual/200 hours “drive service” for a boat with triple IPS600s (and assuming access difficulties) would typically run from $2000-2500. The same kind of a-to-a math indicates their D6 “engine service” would typically run from $1750-2000. I tend to do most of my own routine service, leavened with periodic dealer service (adult supervision) every few years or so… so while these costs could seem high (!), they don’t necessarily reflect what my own typical annual costs would be. I’d have to gradually learn more about what I can do, what I shouldn’t do, what I can’t do.

IPS600 is discontinued as of last year; replacement will be IPS650 with an entirely new Electronic Vessel Control (EVC) system.

-Chris

Thanks for sharing your research, a very helpful account of the steps needed to understand when entering the IPS world.

Not sure about triples in shaft drive or pod drive systems. It takes a bit more math to understand the trade off from 3 smaller systems versus 2 larger systems, I know in shaft drives it typically doesn’t work out on paper.

Also know a long term owner of a triple Cat powered MY and he came to the conclusion that it benefited him only once in 10,000 hours of operation, one engine failed coming up from Cabo to LA and he was able to continue at the same cruising speed to get home and make the repair. No harm, no foul is the saying. If it was twins, he would have still been able to get home, but at a slower speed taking more time for a less than patient Yacht owner. Time is money is the other saying.

I think with IPS you can only get so big a prop spinning, hence the need for triples. Most of the shaft triples I've run across have been WW II era boats where the center prop was used for cruising to conserve fuel.

My first thoughts toward triples were negative a few years ago when I think it was Regal that first went with triples in a 52' or so. This was early days when hp of IPS was much more limited.

However, we have a center console with triples and now we have an AB being built with triple jets and some added benefits of triples done right in those applications. Triple IPS started for the same reason twins did last century, to get added horsepower. I would have no problem with them and would be interested in learning if there are added benefits. For instance, with triple jets you can run with one, two or three although unlikely we'd run with fewer than three. The drive for the middle unit is actually slightly different than the two outside units.

Would love to hear Lars step in with his experience with triple IPS as he has quite a bit.

You are right in that we have used triple IPS for added power. In the 54/60 we started with 3xIPS/600 and got excellent performance in both speed and fuel efficiency. When the IPS/800 arrived, we have installed double instead and have got more or less exactly the same figures. In our 80-footer we have installed triple IPS/1200 up to now and will soon launch the first with 3xIPS/1350. Maybe it will be enough with twin 1350 in the future, it will probably do 30 knots and cruise 25.

I have not run myself with two out of three engines so I can not say how it would work out, but we have great fuel efficiency at all speeds. As an example of the D80 if you slow down from 32 knots with 450 Nm range, to 11 knots the range is 1100 Nm.

The main advantages of IPS is the ease of installation and location of the engines aft, the low noise level, superior performance and the joystick handling. The latter is also an added safety, as the whole family can run the boat if needed...

I have to laugh at that. This time has seen a lot of people learning to use group meetings and cams to communicate. We were on cam with our niece when she was two weeks old, one day after leaving her. She had no idea what was going on but she quickly associated being in front of the monitor with us about to show up on it and she'd smile as we did. By the time she was 3, camming with us was just a normal part of her life. Then she met a girl she decided is her "cousin" here, also her age and they started camming every week with each other. During this crisis, daily. They've even previously had their kindergarten's meet online with each other. At just under 6 years old, meeting on the web is as normal to her as driving a car is to everyone else. She knows how to message the rest of the family and set up times to meet and allow us in when we arrive.
We've laughed at some of our managers and directors having to learn but we have many meetings by web every day now.

Well, I'm sure some of the displacement speed fans will one day try your 88 with just the single engine on long cruises.

Your last paragraph emphasizes a point I've made when talking IPS on boats like Sunseeker. You take a boat designed for shafts and put IPS in it, you don't gain several of the benefits. A 66' Sunseeker Manhattan with IPS has no more cabin space than one with shafts because nothing is changed. Performance is minimally different. Noise is minimally different. Oh, and joystick is available on that boat with or without IPS.

That's why I mentioned you as you have built with IPS as part of the plan and you were in very early. So, any benefits, you maximize.

I am not sure how it would work out driving on one engine since the center drive normally is not steering as I understand it. I can check with Volvo Penta about this.

Of course it is an advantage to design the boat for IPS from scratch. Many boats that has not must run the trim tabs to not lean too much when turning, not a big problem with auto trim these days, but needs to be taken care of.

It’s really about hp and cost. The IPS is limited by the the 1000hp D13’s, to get 3000 hp you have no alternative but to go triple screw in IPS. But if you could do twin 1500 - 2000 hp you would not even be talking triples, the gear is just not so readily available yet.

Hatteras tried triple C32’s in their 77 Motoryacht and it was a bust as twin MTUs could provide the same hp. Cost, complexity, extra equipment and extra maintenance doesn’t pan out. Lazzara tried to play the same game with Quad IPS and wouldn’t do it again.

OB and Water Jets have their own benefits but it is not a true comparison as you can trim an OB up and get it out of the water and Waterjets aren’t hanging below the waterline, but with IPS and shafts you have gear fixed below the waterline, You have to deal with the parasitic drag if one or more engines are down as well as how to lock a shaft or cool a gear that is offline but still rotating, more to manage and more to go wrong.

First, Volvo Penta are not selling IPS to any boat builder without doing their own calculations on the particular boat. We tried to run our triple installation with the center engine not running and the props off, and it worked out just fine. So a boat that will not get on plane with twin IPS have a too small engine package to get on plane at all.

When I look at the Swedish VP website, there are 12 IPS offerings, including an IPS 600 with 440 hp and an IPS 650 with 480 hp.

Thanks you, all, for the additional discussion starting with...

And AMG's comment about triple IPS600 performance in a 54/60 is very useful.

I've pretty much intentionally ignored this boat model for the 10+ years since it was introduced, specifically because of the triples. At the time, IPS600 was the largest option available, though, so it was either triples.. or don't do the boat at all; the interior just wouldn't work without pods/engines mounted far aft. IOW, I understood the advantages of the interior layout, knew that was attributable to pods, thought triples was a goofy idea.

OK, so I'm gradually climbing down off that high horse... maybe...

And just yesterday I think I noticed (in pictures) the entire cockpit sole is "easily" removable in case of catastrophic engine failure. I have to check that in person, but in my mind that's an advantage over straight shaft boats with engines underneath the saloon... and with no pre-existing hatches over the engines for occasional or catastrophic service access.

Also yesterday I heard from a bud that the boat seems a bit tender at rest, guessing because the hull is not a deep V so as to accommodate the center drive without increasing draft (which is only 4'). Could be. We were on the same sister ship maybe 4 years ago, but I only did a quick (literally) 5 minute tour, didn't pay much significant attention because of the triples... so didn't notice then... and I wasn't docked close enough to the boat to notice any tenderness. Another issue I'll need to check, in person.

A relatively new owner told me he can run on one or two engines at a time, but it's not recommended. No mention of being able to steer with only the center engine. I know with straight shafts prop/shaft rotation raises transmission and shaft seal cooling issues if the engine's not running. I'd guess that would be the case with pods at anything but dead slow speeds, too. In our current case, I can run on one engine at low speeds without locking the shaft/prop -- and our shaft seals have a cross-over -- but then there's a way to lock from inside the boat if I had to. I expect that's not an option with the pods.

To let the cat out of the bag... the boat model is a 2009 Ovation 52... and I expect the hull was drawn by Blount...

If the boat were built today with larger twin pods and a true deep-V hull (I think), and assuming prop sizes in twins could be large enough... I expect that might be nifty.

I haven't had much luck finding a rent-a-kid, mostly due to virus-related issues. Still, I have hopes I can find a 12-year-old to sort me out on the joy stick if necessary...

-Chris

It was a 77 SF and they looked at the 77 and 80 MY as well. This article is a typical PMY feel good piece, there were more issues down the road:

https://www.******************.com/boat-tests/hatteras-77-enclosed-bridge-convertible

They also had a history of triple screw in their large 120’ Motoryacht, but too much hardware underneath to deal with when one or two units are down.