Cape Horn Yachts

Thanks PacBlue. I value your observations and am sure others will too.

Hard chines vs radiused ones: As you can imagine I did a LOT of basic study before making this decision on my own boat (Hull #1) -- that was before even thinking of starting a boat business; it was just for my personal yacht. It has been over a couple decades, but I found studies on hard chines and learned the difference in forward resistance is negligible to zero, depends which study. I like using the example of Inuit canoes/kayaks as a dead simple and obvious one for extrapolation. (Besides I'm a canoeist and I observed the same personally as a Boy Scout.) Inuit evidently prefer hard chines, so I wondered why -- given the shoulder-power aspect.

Bottom line for otherwise identical beam and displacement hulls in forward motion, if the two have equal wetted surface and LWL -- they will have teensie or zero difference in forward resistance. I also wrote it up in my book and no one ever challenged me even though on the front page I encouraged readers in bold letters to please quarrel with any factual aspects. No one every disagreed with me on this.

Having said that, fuel economy was never the highest priority. It is a relatively minor long-term cost of ownership so long as we can carry enough for the Pacific crossing. Strength, safety, interior living space, rolling, pitching mattered enormously. Steel vs aluminum or glass. Hard chines. Bilge keels, active fins. Beamy for interior volume and roll-resistance. These things add up to weight, displacement and fuel-eating beam. Plus the active fins and bilge keels add some water resistance.

In the big picture the hard chine vs round bilge decision has nothing to do with efficiency. It's about rolling resistance.

Some suggested I may have gone with hard chines because they are cheaper to build. In truth there is zero difference in what a yard will charge for either, it's but a rounding error. Again: It's about rolling resistance.

Glad you 'get it' about the bilge keels. We minimized their drag by making them somewhat wing-shaped also directing water flow best for active fins. The distance from the active fins fore and aft were the most serious part in terms of minimizing the negatives on the active fins.

Were I to start building again today, I would study the elimination of active fins altogether; make the bilge keels one-piece vs two sections and try go with a gyro stabilizer(s). Much safer, two less holes in the boat, completely rock proof and they work at anchor. Love them conceptually although have never even seen a pair in person nor know about electrical needs etc.

There's probably a lot one could do better today.

The George Petrie review, sorry I do not recall, too long ago. Besides I was in classical show business for fifteen years and always told my clients, let the critics be critics, don't even read the reviews and give yourself ulcers; it's the actual audience in the room that counts, every critic has their personal taste. On the 62, please see Baird's see trial report which I copy-pasted earlier. If you look at the video on a tripod of the 82 sea trial in Force 6-7 I published, our 62 and 82 were very similar in at-sea behaviour with weather from all directions. They were essentially the same basic hulls with similar GM, just on different scales and different superstructures, a 2' difference in beam. We didn't change the hulls much, just tweaked away.

Sparkman and Stephens studied our boats thoroughly and didn't change much below the waterline even though they had a free hand. They did a great styling job however and convinced me that roll-over was virtually impossible so went with a larger, more luxurious aluminum superstructure of similar weight to the steel one.

Unfortunately I have never been aboard the Sparkman and Stephens 82 I had contracted and started to build in a superb China yard well before selling the company. Mike who bought the brand didn't feel like flying 18 hours to China every couple months, most unfortunately, nor did his managers -- so he tripled the cost and built in USA. Big costly error. It killed him, perhaps literally. Nor have I spoken to anyone who has been aboard -- so cannot speak with any knowledge of the 2nd generation at sea. I find the photos to be very pretty however; great lines to my personal taste. But a $2 million (construction cost) boat suddenly became a $6 million construction-cost boat -- and it ended there. Most sadly.

- Peter

I was just reminiscing about my years of being active on YF and happened to searched Judy Waldman, who I have met many times at FLIBS, and ended up reading Carl's post. I am actually crying as I write this post as I am overtaken by the emotions of love, admiration, and respect for Judy, Carl, the admins, the many senior members with whom I have interacted with over the years as well as the members and new members. This post by Carl has really got me going as his magnificent management and contributions to YF always astound me as being the words of one of the world's great all knowing and all seeing sages!!!! I will be eternally grateful for the inspiration and guidance of Carl, Judy, and the admins who in a loving and professional manor gently tutored me so I could become become a positive and ethical participant on IMHO the world's most incredible website!

Although my ability to actively participate in boat shows, the boarding, and exploring of boats and yachts etc my lifelong passion for boating in all forms continues to be a major part of my life. My husband and I recently relocated from South Florida to my home town of Norfolk, VA where I caught the boating bug as a child growing up on the the surrounding waterways enjoying a plethora of boating activities. We live in downtown a few blocks from the Waterside Marina and a block from the Elizabeth river where we have views of the battleship Wisconsin and the water so we are right at home! Eternal thanks to YF for being such a large and enjoyable part of my life. And last but not least kudos to the gentleman who respectfully and thoughtfully responded to this post. Sounds like we have a new lover of Yachtforums!!!!!

Thanks, Disco! I'll mail you the check as promised. Seriously, thanks for your magnanimous words for me and Carl and all those that have helped over the years. And thanks to you for all of your boat show pics and contributions. Your absence is noticed and YF isn't quite the same without you. Let us know when you're in the So. Fl. area and maybe we'll have a YF roundup. Best wishes for calm seas always.

Judy

Need to get an address to send you a check DK... that reads like a paid advertorial! Appreciate the kind words, but credit is due our senior members. I may have built the boat, but they are the propulsion system.

When I win the lottery, which is just around the corner, I will be making a bee line to Lauderdale so you can help me find my new home!

The top contenders are Silver Cloud and AE Cap D'Antibes which have elevators and my all time favorite Mizu ex Sea Bowld built by Oceanfast and designed by Sam Sorgiovanni. She totally and completely captivated me when I toured her at FLIBS before her latest refit. If I didn't know better I would have thought she was the creation of my favorite yacht designer Jon Bannenberg who often chose Oceanfast which is the yard that has produced some of the most iconic leading edge yachts that were a complete departure from the typical designs of the day.

It was quite disappointing to read this thread; I disagree with the Admin that these types of opinions encourage discourse – it actually drives people to other forums or makes us roll our eyes at how opinions so quickly become facts.

I see the forums as great entertainment as frequent posters espouse opinions sprinkled with some facts, hearsay, and anecdotal experience. To view some of these posts as adding credibility to the site is a disservice to the site and its goal. I choose to not correct frequent posters because the effort is met with such negative resistance and vehemence when others clearly take the time to provide factual information, why bother.

Just once I would like to see a “mea cupla.” I pick and carefully choose the nuggets of wisdom that are displayed in the threads. I encourage everyone to seek out the facts and remember the majority of posted opinions are negative, the happy/positive ones seldom take the time to post (me included).

I appreciate how some posters like PacBlue provided a voice of reason and explained the engineering discipline for those who didn’t see the mistakes in the discussion. Other owners also participated in the discussion correcting misinformation and providing actual boating experience refuting the negative claims – this is INVALUABLE information, refreshing, and moves the discussion forward.

I find Peter’s posts adding a large amount of important information as a positive contribution although at times inflammatory. I certainly understand his position and frustration; unfortunately, he may have taken things personally and his replies became personal. BUT understandably so, as I often feel the frustration when posters make blanket statements then refuse to back down. So credit to him for acknowledging (apologizing) his mistakes and moving on.

My hope is that so much of the rhetoric on the threads is tempered with reasoned opinions that don’t draw lines in the sand and people admit their mistakes, learn from them, and make positive contributions.

Another Happy Cape Horn Owner

So you make your first and only post so far just to jump in on this and open it back up even after it had been dead for over two months. You disclose in the last sentence your full purpose, to defend a brand you own. That's fine, but that doesn't mean others are any less entitled to express negative views of that brand. The brand, nor any brand, hasn't always been perfect.

I think contrary views on products are fine for this site. I think the bad in this thread was the personal attacks made. They went from mild to truly classless.

I'm a strong defender of Westport, but if someone offers a contrary opinion I'll just discuss my disagreement, but won't attack them personally. I am a defender of Riva but some very respected members here have attacked them and attacked early versions of a boat I own, a Rivarama. I am a milder defender of Sunseeker and a prior owner, and at least one of our esteemed European members doesn't look on them favorably but that's healthy opposing views.

Even if the negative posts about a brand such as Cape Horn are based on the experience of one potential buyer with one boat or the opinion of someone no longer involved with the company, they're as justified as the praise by an esteemed broker and persons directly involved with the brand who show up to defend it. And the criticism by a long time member and contributor to the forum is certainly more justified than someone who signs up, is an owner, and makes their one and only post to reopen an old thread.

You come in to criticize and say these are the kinds of things that drive people to other forums but you've never been a participant on this forum. Now, perhaps, make some posts on other topics and find ways to contribute rather than just popping in, likely at the encouragement of others involved with Cape Horn, to make one post defending your boat but with no information, just criticizing the thread and it's content. We can always use new contributing members and would welcome you to become one. Perhaps start a thread talking about where you've most recently cruised and how you found it.

Exactly....you proved my point about frequent posters. Thank-you!

Glad to be of service. Is that now all you wish to contribute to the forum or will you make other contributions on other topics as well?

Apparently the concept works. It got you to trade in your lurker status!

KC, we welcome knowledge, but if you ask two people about a shared experience, you may get two different answers. Forums bring about consensus. If you take exception with the information posted, we welcome contrasting (and correcting) points of view.

Bias Alert! I sold the Cape Horn 63 to KC and his wife about 4 months ago. KC didn't post then, didn't brand promote. He's now made numemrous trips on his CH cruising in the PNW and is now posting as a somewhat experienced owner. People looking for information on Cape Horns find this YF thread and may be discouraged by the numerous posts regarding a particular CH that ws slammed by one poster who has never ridden on a CH as far as I know and by a potential buyer who experienced real problems, although that was explained to be poor mechanical repairs. Several CH owners have given positive reviews of their vessel to refute the false and misrepresentative information. So now we hear from yet another happy CH owner and instead of being welcomed as we do most new posters, he gets blasted for posting about his new boat. Was there anything in the responses that would make him feel welcome? Let's try a re-do.

Judy

Hi KC --

Welcome to YF! After your extensive two-year search for a serious passagemaking yacht, I know that you have a lot of information, spreadsheets, photos, and opinions on trawlers from New England to the mid-Atlantic to Florida to PNW. I value and respect your opinions and look forward to reading your posts as questions come up about specific brands and about cruising in general. Enjoy your new boat!

Judy

He came in just to blast the forum and clearly was made aware and encouraged by someone to make the post. Had he simply posted that he was a new purchaser of a Cape Horn and was very pleased with his boat, then that would have been different. If he cares to join the forum and contribute in other ways he will be welcomed, but so far his one and only post is to say that posts that are negative regarding the brand hurt the forum and continue the crusade you're involved in plus Peter came in to join in and now him.

A positive review doesn't refute any negative reviews. If the opinion on a boat is 20 to 1 in favor, the 1 still has a right to their opinion. Unfortunately some make it personal and attack the other person rather than just their opinion.

I really don't care about Cape Horn, but kc_excursion didn't come in apparently to participate in the forum but simply to be a provocateur. I assume he did not find the site or the thread by googling so perhaps either you or Peter encouraged him. I don't know, but I do have a problem with a solicitated poster who comes here only to disagree with the forum owner on the value of discourse and to jump in with his one post.

You admit to Bias. I have none. What I've heard over the last few years regarding Cape Horn has been 90% positive but the negative is fine too and I have heard negative but am not getting into that battle. That's not the relative argument. I've had brands I love spoken poorly of on this forum, but I accepted that as a different opinion, perhaps even based on a different time.

The "fight" had died away in January and was best left that way. KC came in to stir things back up. I did welcome and suggest a way to become an active contributor. Had he come in simply to speak of his pleasure with his boat, I would not have responded. He came in wanting a response to prove his point, whatever it was. I gave him what he wanted apparently.

Now, can we please drop this until someone new has an experience that they can objectively post about regarding a Cape Horn, either positive or negative. We know the views of those who have strongly expressed them in this thread. Maybe one day I'll take a cruise on one and then form an opinion of that boat. However, that will only be of that one boat at that one time.

Update on the CH 81 that was the subject of much of this thread. I just heard that the "new" owner had issues initially with the steering which only needed some adjusting. He has been cruising all over the Caribbean for over 2 years now and LOVES THE BOAT.

I just called the Selling Broker because I have 2 clients interested in buying a CH 81 and he told me that it is doubtful the owner will sell because he LOVES his boat. Sorry the new owner didn't post himself to put an end to all of the rubbish that had been posted here. So much damage the bad talk created and all for nothing. I hope lessons were learned!

Proud broker who has successfully concluded 18 Cape Horn sales and going for survey next week and hoping to make it 19! I'm glad I stuck to my guns and principles based on experience. My CH 81 and I have been vindicated.

Judy

As a function of curiosity, I’ve tracked this boat Via AIS since deciding not to purchase after survey. So far, I’ve not seen the boat venture more than about 100 miles from home base in PR. Hardly cruising all over Caribbean.

The boat was donated to then sold by a Charitable Organization. If I correctly recall the particulars of that agreement, it would be difficult for a new owner to sell this soon after purchase.

just the facts as I see them.

Brett

What is your point?

I tend to believe GCSI who doesn't oversell something or spout BS. The above post sounds like an AS SEEN ON TV infomercial at 3am.

36 month lease agreement is standard between buyer and donation organization when purchasing a vessel that has been donated.

Facts? AIS is always turned on? So the Selling Broker, who said he has cruised with the "new" owner in the Caribbean and who was last in touch with him a few weeks ago must be lying. I said all along that all this yacht needed was a good owner and a good mechanic. The owner, who btw is seriously involved in the marine industry, has been cruising with his family and no professional captain nor crew. Yep, Brett, you missed a great opportunity and I know you well enough after shopping boats with you for years and undergoing more than one survey, to figure it might be a hard pill for you to swallow. Glad you like your Hatteras and glad you're not part of my Cape Horn family.

And of course I could count on Capt. J, who has never been at sea on a CH, to post something derogatory. Please let's not again ruin this thread with pettiness. I made a relevant post based on new information I was given by a very reputable broker who is in close communication with the owner.

Judy

All speculation. Puerto Rico is considered in the Carribbean.

Perhaps if Cape Horn was still in business and built more than a few handful of boats, I would've run one. But it's just another yacht builder that simply couldn't hack it on it's merits and stay in business just like Jefferson, Broward, Northern Marine and many others. Heck, Cape Horn wasn't ever even a builder, they were a company that sub contracted the building of their boats to other boat yards/builders. You don't see people on here trying to over-promote Northern Marine (or me) and singing kumbuya, over and over again. The 76' Northern Marine I ran was a beast, had her in a 10-12' head sea enroute to the Palm Beach show many years ago, and a great sea boat. Since then the boat did a transatlantic, down through South America, up the Pacific to Canada, with a father and son owners running it.

THEN you blast GFSI after surveying a Cape Horn that was a total mess for buying a quality brand (Hatteras) that is still considered the top quality Motoryacht builder 105' and under? geez.