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Ferretti 88

Discussion in 'Ferretti Yacht' started by DAB, Jun 24, 2018.

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  1. DAB, Jun 24, 2018
    #1
    DAB

    DAB New Member

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    We are currently looking at a 06 ferretti 88, I have been told that this particular boat is one of the top 10 charter boat in the MIA area, and generates in the 300K/year, and pays for itself - I assume no including depreciation or financing, AND "frugal" owner usage. This boat is also reasonably priced.

    My questions are:

    - In this price/size range is this boat a good options? Other to look at?
    We looked at an 09 azimut 85 for about the same price.

    - I ran the numbers and came up with roughly 350k/year with 2 crew (+1 or 2 per diem for charter / owner), PMT, maintenance etc. 300k/year in revenue would be roughly 10 weeks of charter (80% to owner) which is in line with a good chartering boat in a high charter area (MIA).
    Do you guys see any issues with those numbers?

    - the boat is listed at 1.9M, what kind of purchase price range would make this boat a great buy, a fair buy , a bad buy

    - What to look at in particular on this boat/ issues?

    - What options are must have on this?

    - IS this a good options for Bahamas / Caribbean cruising?

    Lots of questions, I know... Thank you all.
  2. olderboater, Jun 24, 2018
    #2
    olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    You've been told? Have you seen proof?

    Also, let's consider for a moment it has been a good charter boat, it's approaching that age that people do remove boats of it's type from charter and sell them. Many feel that either A) they are no longer as desirable to charter guests or B) it's not worth spending the money on them to keep them as desirable.

    Also, will you be able to keep it in the same charter fleet it's been in?

    You haven't really made it clear why you're buying a boat. You talk about chartering and then you talk about Bahamas and Caribbean cruising. Are you focused on enjoyment or chartering? Must it be successful chartering for you to afford it? It's one thing if you have chartering as a little bonus but to go in dependent on it, it another entirely.

    Another boat in that range worth looking at is 85' Pacific Mariners (built by Westport).
  3. Capt Ralph, Jun 24, 2018
    #3
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    looking at a 06 ferretti 88.

    12 year old boat were guessing about.
    How many refits, rebuilds, upgrades, interior updates if any.
    There should be a mountain of papers and notes added to the ships manuals Documenting every feature that has been serviced thru it's life.
    Or else, it's just another 12 year old hull. No big deal.

    Your also guessing about the number$. Can you look at the book$ ?
  4. DAB, Jun 24, 2018
    #4
    DAB

    DAB New Member

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    All very good points

    As far as I am concerned it is for personal use, I can afford it but with 0$ in charter revenue and 350k / year in expenses it may get a bit annoying/ expensive for the amount of use, just the way I am

    If the boat does charter and offset some cost it would make my ownership experience more enjoyable

    Again is 300-350k a year in expense sounds right?

    Is 10 week hatter in mia realistic?

    Thank you
  5. Capt Ralph, Jun 24, 2018
    #5
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    No COI. Your not going to draw any quality clients in just for Miami charters.
    6 Pax will probably be your norm.

    Again, were guessing your expenses on a 12 year old boat with out knowing any history.
    Your full time crew of 2, 1 or 2 rotating stews, south FL insurance, Bahama insurance, charter insurance, dock rent, light maintenance will eat up your number$ in a hurry.
    If not new now, your looking at a pair of gen-sets soon.
  6. Capt Ralph, Jun 24, 2018
    #6
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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  7. Capt Ralph, Jun 24, 2018
    #7
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I have been told that this particular boat is one of the top 10 charter boat in the MIA area, and generates in the 300K/year, and pays for itself

    furz in der luft
  8. olderboater, Jun 24, 2018
    #8
    olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    No, 10 weeks is not realistic for a 12 year old mid sized boat. It's well above average. $30,000 per week seems a bit high as well for that age and size. Don't forget to deduct commissions off the income as well.

    As to expense, we don't know the condition of the boat. However, Here's my shot at it. Used 10 weeks and chartered 10, I'd make repairs, maintenances, insurance, dockage, communications between $200k and $250k. Charter does require things you might not individually. As to crew, depends on the flag but I would put salary for 2 full time plus 2 the 10 charter weeks at $150-175k plus add in food, transportation, taxes, medical, uniforms $35k-$50k.

    Reducing income to $22,000 per week net of commissions and fees, both retail and central, then I have income of $220k and expenses of $450k so an annual cost of $230k. Or you could not own and charter yourself for a little more with none of the hassle.

    If the expenses would get annoying, then I'd do something less annoying. Suddenly you're turning pleasure into business and ultimately that can end the fun.

    Think of a major mechanical issue and you lose your 4 best weeks of charter but since they were booked, still pay the commission on them. Think of crew turnover right before a charter or an injured crew member. Think of missing one entire season for a refit.

    I'm playing devil's advocate because you've been given a sales job by a broker trying to sell you a boat. I ask this, "If chartering is such a money maker then why are the current owners selling? Why not just keep it in charter?" I will guarantee you that he can't produce you real numbers that show the rosy picture he painted. If he produced the numbers it would say things like "well, this year we didn't charter it as much due to...." and "this year we had the accumulation of a lot of maintenance and had to replace all the electronics" and ultimately you will see you've been painted the best years but not reflective of all the years. If it hasn't had a total refit it's probably very close to needing one if it's to remain in charter.
  9. olderboater, Jun 24, 2018
    #9
    olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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  10. Capt Ralph, Jun 24, 2018
    #10
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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  11. Capt Ralph, Jun 24, 2018
    #11
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    BTW
    There is a reason this one is listed 500+K$ less than her sister ships.
    BVI boat.
    3300 hours on 2030HP - M91s.
  12. DAB, Jun 24, 2018
    #12
    DAB

    DAB New Member

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    I understand some of the arguments, but it all seems really high. using some of the math above adding financing you are 550K/year expenses for a 88 foot boat.

    I did speak to both brokers and friends /owners.

    Owners shared with me cost of 35M being similar (550+/-) , and I believe to be more frugal.

    Also the charter for 88 ferretti is 6,400/day or 38.4K/week @ 80/20 split 30.7K/ week - 10 weeks 300K
  13. DAB, Jun 24, 2018
    #13
    DAB

    DAB New Member

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    Thank you Ralph - Can you please explain?
  14. Capt Ralph, Jun 24, 2018
    #14
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Get some estimates on how much 2 x M91 rebuilds will cost. Double that number.
    You will be suddenly facing that soon.
    It's a 25+KT boat. Sitting 3/4 of her life with 3300 hours on the mains.

    I figure Kohler 30+KW gen-sets. Got to be 12K hours on them in 12 years. Notice no specs on them in the ad.

    Oh, BVI boat. Foreign flag. I don't know lots about this. Maybe enough to suggest you learn more about this.
    Hint; The boat is a foreign guest of the U S.
  15. DAB, Jun 24, 2018
    #15
    DAB

    DAB New Member

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    Ralph- So far I have: 40-50K for the 2 generators, and was told for the 4,000 hour rebuild (by broker representing me not the seller) 175K (so maybe 200K?) roughly in 3 years.
    Apparently service record for the engine are excellent (we will see)
    Interior is in excellent condition not sure of when she was refitted.

    We will get details but she is being refitted continuously every year for electronics, interior, toys (very good shape)
  16. DAB, Jun 24, 2018
    #16
    DAB

    DAB New Member

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    I got different quotes on this boat for charter from different brokers/company and similar boats and it seems consistant at roughly 6200-6400/day and weekly you pay 6 and get 7, so 37K/week and it is low season here in MIA.
  17. olderboater, Jun 24, 2018
    #17
    olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    I cannot speak to boat financing. Trust me, owners don't share the worst years when they share. Also, the annual costs on an owner used boat are not nearly what they are on a chartered boat. Look at each line item on the cost calculator I referred you to and you plug in what you believe those will cost. Just don't forget the engines will require rebuilds at some point, the boat will need to be painted, the canvas will have to be replaced, the electronics will die, and at 12 years old many of the items on a boat are reaching the point of some major expenses coming.

    Now, sounds like you'd already made up your mind when you asked so you can feel free to ignore us. You asked, we answered to the best of our ability. That was before we even knew about financing. Now you're talking about financing a boat that you're feeling dependent on chartering to support.
  18. Capt Ralph, Jun 24, 2018
    #18
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Within 3 years, please update this thread to let us know how close anybody was.
    IMO, your numbers are a bit low.
  19. Capt Ralph, Jun 24, 2018
    #19
    Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Your charter is 6Pax?
  20. DAB, Jun 24, 2018
    #20
    DAB

    DAB New Member

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    Thank you older boater and capt Ralph-I have not made up my mind yet-- I am trying to understand the forecasting of expenses and revenue, same as I do for business.
    Without being an expert I was often able to reduce expenses in different area of business/organizations.

    It doesn't mean I will get anywhere but I believe in the yacht (similar to private plane) there are so many people around the owner that make money at every level that it is often possible to lower expenses by 100K.
    A few example that comes to mind immediately:
    Hiring a captain for example that will maintain the boat (frugal) that understand that every parts, service company etc needs to be shopped around "as is if it was your money" - a lot of folks understand and respect that.
    Strategic stops for fuel etc can go a long way.
    Docking in Miami can be 5K in a Marina or 2K using a private residence that is 36K/year. In my case the broker's company manages a few top notch marina and already told me we could work out a deal for around 3K (little negotiations adds up)
    purchasing the boat: in this case get a credit for the 200K engine rebuild and 50K for generators off the price.


    As far as revenue is concerned: my broker just told me that this particular boat in our particular area (Miami) charters extremely well and that just himself as a charter broker did about 40 days on this particular boat.
    He could be completely lying, but he didn't strike me as the most dishonest guy. I could ask in due time for proof of chartering.


    I understand you guys are very much knowledgeable, and I should be ready for the rough time of ownership.


    Now- What do you guys think of the boat charter-ability?
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