Outer Reefer vs Grand Banks

Yes and no. How does the 86' Johnson perform? It does 14 knots at cruise and around 120-140 gph. I never said anything about their gelcoat or paint, which is usually pretty good with all of them.

The major components are usually good. But it's all the little stuff..... the problem I see with most all of those yards in Asia is they order engines and parts and hoses and clamps and this and that, and then it sits in their yard for 2-5 years before it's even installed in the boat. I'm dealing with a 2013 Asian build right now.... All of the wire bound hoses are some chinese or Taiwanese crap..... I've already replaced all of the a/c raw water ones (and clamps) from dry rot. Many of the other ones are showing signs of dry rotting starting. The wire inside of the hose is weak crap.

They come in at a much lower price than a U.S. or Euro build, they perform usually lesser than both builds (similar MY's) and you get a much lower price at resale.

Here's a perfect example. I've been running a 66' MY from one of the top 5 builders over there. The boat has C18's in it. The only economical way to run the boat is at 1350 rpms or less (why they put E rated C18's in this build I have NO idea). At 80% load (and 85 gph)or around 2050 rpms it cruises 14.6-16.3 knots depending on which side of the wave or current your on....it just goes back and forth in speed digging a big hole and MUST have more than 10' UNDER the keel in order to do this, otherwise like in the ICW it does 12 knots at 80% or WOT also, bow pointed straight in the air. At 1350 rpms it runs 11.5 knots in the ocean (sometimes over 12), but again MUST have over 10' under the keel.....anything less than 10' under the keel like in the ICW it does 8.9-9.5 knots at 1350 RPMs. I have NEVER seen anything like it on a 66' motoryacht. I can count on my one hand the number of Asian built motoryachts over 60' that will cruise at 20 knots or above no matter how much HP they throw in them. Usually almost all of them at cruise, run maximum PLOW, bow pointed way up in the air, burning a ton of fuel and wallow from side to side.

I never said they weren't reliable aside from the fore mentioned issues. I've also been told from a mutual friend that you ran your Johnson at 10 knots or so 98% of the time because it drank so much fuel at cruise. At 21 knots you would be burning 100 gph at that load factor......and at 80% load 140 gph to do what 25 knots? But like I said I can count on one hand the number of Asian built MY's that are over 60' and cruise at 20 knots of above.

I've spent some time with one of the biggest Johnsons.....it had it's nuances and issues.... my buddy had to change all of the interior lighting over from DC to AC with a transformer because it would surge and flicker etc., the fuel transfer pump screens kept getting clogged all of the time with those beetle things the workers eat that they stay stoned off of all day when they're building the boat (forgot the name of the stuff), guess they'd spit them out in the hull as they're building the boat and that part of the hull then became the fuel tank...... Only place you could turn the fuel transfer pumps on was front of the engine room. Boat had 2 large fuel tanks (about 2000 gallons each) and 2 day tanks which weren't enough for an entire day When you were underway you could only drain the aft tank down to 35% and then couldn't get the rest out but could drain the fwd tank all of the way down, when you were at rest you couldn't get the last 40% out of the bow tank, but could drain the aft tank all the way. I understand all of the smaller 86' suffered the same issue.

The Euro yachts have their own set of issues and nuances, like they ALL come with thin teak.

Then you should start counting with Cheoy Lee's entire Alpha line. Then toss in the Horizon V Series and the E series, not to mention the Cat. Some of the Grand Banks Aleutians such as the 72' with C18 1150's. These are just come targeting more speed that quickly come to mind. Most builders don't target that speed, but those who do achieve it.

Now, as to 20 year old boats and such, way before my time, but very few targeted an ability to plane.

The Grand Banks 72' cruise speed is 18.5 knots all of the other Aleutians are around there too 16.5-18.5 knot cruise, hard to find data on the Horizons but the 80 E series cruised at 20.2 knots, most of the V or E series cruise around 18.5 knots. The Horizon Cats all cruise under 20 knots, well under 20 knots usually 14-16.5 knots. 18.5 or 20 knot cruise was noteworthy for a motoryacht in, you know.....1990.

By 1997 (20 years ago) the Hatteras' were all cruising 20 knots as well as all of the popular MY builders at that time. The Euro motoryachts such as Sunseeker and Azimut both cruising over 20 knots. Neptunus over 20 knots.

The Alpha line was one I counted in my handful, the Johnson was another but only 2 models the 70' and 105' with 16v2000's (it cruises at 21 knots) (only because it's the 86' stretched with a much flatter stern area and a lot more HP, and a lot less weight in the stern area.), Mckinna 65' only because it's the 58' stretched with a cockpit and flatter stern area that gives it some stern lift. Which brings another issue most of the Asian builders do that contributes to their funky rides, they'll keep extending the stern of the same mold and make 3 different length boats off of 1 mold and just dam it to make the shorter ones........so the mold was initially designed for 1 size say 86', but the very same mold has now been extended to 105'.

Grand Banks Aleutian 72' with the 1150 hp engines that I stated cruises at 21 knots at 2000 RPM. It's WOT is 25 knots at 2343 RPM. The Horizon V's definitely top 20 knots and I believe the E's do as well.

None of this reflects on the ability of Asian yards, but simply what they were designing for. They were designing boats to run at displacement or slightly above speeds with minimal power. They've been slow because they chose to be slow.

Asian builders choose to extend? Again a generalization that's just not true with all. OA does it, Cheoy Lee doesn't. Look at someone like Christensen in the US and their one hull only extended to multiple lengths. Northern did it too. Hardly something limited to Asian builders. Long been a popular practice of those building sportfishing boats as well.

I don't know of Asian builders trying to match Euroyachts like Sunseeker or Riva or Pershing. You can't say they can't do it simply because they choose not to. After all they do own both Sunseeker and Ferretti. That's like saying Italian companies aren't capable of building SF's. Well, they didn't try to my knowledge until Bertram. None of this has anything to do with quality or the initial question regarding Outer Reef and Grand Banks. They are both well built Asian boats. I see a lot of Feadship's that don't cruise at 20 knots, but it doesn't mean they don't build a good boat.

As to hardware and equipment used on builds, a lot has to do with the market they target and then some with the company. I know one Italian builder whose hardware and electric work you hate. Sunseeker has it's issues on some odd electrical items and on their gellcoat spidering. Every builder is different, some good and some bad, and neither good nor bad is the sole property of any specific continent.

I mainly was speaking of the quality of the components and build and what I said is true 98% of the time of Asian yards like the other poster mentioned.

But the Asian companies aren't trying to go slow, they're putting big motors in a lot of the Motoryachts, problem is when pushed to cruise rpm, they drink tons of fuel and don't go nearly as fast as they should. Few US or Euro builders use the same mold or extend molds, but lots of the Asian builders do......a much higher percentage. Needless to say, the overall quality is not as good as other countries and their price reflects that. Some things they do really well at, such as woodwork.

I refuse to speak in generalities about the boats of any country and especially about any continent. The things you state are only true of certain Asian builders of certain boats during certain time periods. But they are not true for all Asian builders anymore than you can call all US builders good.

Certain things are a definate. You are never going to find a European brand of circuit breaker on a U.S. made yacht for the U.S. market. Nor will you find a Euro bilge pump in a U.S. yacht. Nor a factory installed passerelle on a U.S. yacht (that's not a special order).

Certain regions use certain parts from their region regardless of where the boat is going. Just like you will never see a Perko sea strainer installed at the factory on an Italian built production yacht. If the Italians could build a good sportfish, they would've by now. There's a lot of SF in Italy and a pretty good sized market over there. I cannot tell you how many Cabo's, Hatteras' and other new SF I've loaded on a freighter going to Italy.

One thing I have seen on every single Asian built yacht I've walked on, and I've walked (and run) LOTS of them. They all have over complicated fuel and electrical systems, They never ever seem to use high quality stainless on the exterior. They all seem to use the same groco copy of sea strainers. They all use crappy Chinese or some other weird country of wire bound hose that doesn't last. That's what they can get in their region and that's what they use. So yes, certain characteristics are the same on most all of the yachts from a continent.

Ahhhh so many good laughs reading this.
Thanks.
Its like the Chevrolet versus Toyota trucks debate all over again.
My favorite part was how yachts like Nordhavn are junk and they use cheap parts.
I'm surprised they do not sink just 20 miles off shore in a light 2 foot chop.
All those long open ocean voyages in storms must surely then have been pure fluke to have made it to the next continent or country.

I represent one of these Asian brands and I would like to invite you to visit us to inspect few yachts, maybe even test run them for speed, performance and fuel consumption. I would demonstrate how we save weight without compromising the structural integrity. I would also like to share the purchasing records of each yacht to show that the majority of the components, materials and parts are purchased from the United States and are all well known name brand products and materials. PM me if interested in seeing how, at least one, Asian builder has changed over the years.

Can someone rate these asian boats by quality.i am back in the market to buy a live aboard within the next year and was somewhat surprised to read such different opinions on these boats. I just sold my sea ray 47 and looking for a 49 to 54 bridge to live aboard 3 to 6 months a year. Sea ray quality would be the reference and the minimum quality i would be looking for. Would be using the boat mostly for the St Laurence the first years and island hopping in the West Indies afterwards when i finally stop working full time. Asian boats seem to hold their value better than most Europian boats . Trawler type boat would be my preference since the wife likes cooking and they usually have large galley up. Any suggestions on Dutch or Asian steel hulls. Nobody has really discussed the costs of maintaining such boats versus fiberglass .If someone does take the time to answer my different questions, year of construction would be in the 2005 to 2009 and budget in the 400 to 500 thousand. I am looking for the best value for money spent and not the best boat in the market . I am avid reader of yatchforum and read all of the threads . Thanks

I'd take a look at a Fleming. I believe they made a 55'. Grand Banks another one to look at.

Don't get me wrong, the Asian boats are built strong and have good wood work and such. It's just basic raw materials seem to be of poorer quality. The major systems and components are US. But the issue I have with them is over complicated fuel systems, poor performance on the vast majority of them......but all the small parts are lesser quality, stainless steel, latches, cabinet drawer hinges, wire bound hose, hose clamps, sea strainers (are fine but can't get the exact baskets for them, Groco baskets are close but not exact), over complicated electrical panels on a lot of them. The little nagging stuff that you have to search and search for a U.S. replacement that will retrofit without a lot of changing stuff.

I guess I should have been more detailed that with this Asian builder also the small parts like latches, hinges, hose clamps, Groco parts etc are coming from U.S. suppliers. Regardless of region each builder has an option to be a leader with the latest technologies, or just do what others are already doing. I recommend buyers to contact builders and ask questions, lots of them, and to make sure the support and warranties are in place. And if you are real serious, ask for a sea trial.

I spent a few days with a builder doing a delivery. The conversation was an eye opener. I think that any boats come down to what the builder is willing to pay for. He told me about how much stuff they source and ship from the US to taiwan to make sure that it's exactly what they want installed. He said they slowly came to an agreement with the yard where the purchasing guy wouldn't just substitute junky parts for quality stuff. Left me impressed.

There are builders who long ago realized the US was key to their success. Many Asian builders were shipping over 60% of their builds to the US, some as high as 80%. The smart ones built with that in mine. Similarly some of the European builders do a good job of building and shipping boats for the US while others don't handle that quite as smoothly.

I ve put over 3500 hours in 8 years on the Johnson 70 and at 21 kts fuel burn was between 80 to 85gpg depending on conditions. NOT 100gph. That was with 55/60% load on the 3412Es. 80% load is about 23kts and 95 GPH. Spent a lot of the hours running at hull speed but mostly because there was no need to hurry up so why burn more fuel...

Not great but not bad either. Certainly decent performance and fuel especially considering that this is a solid glass hull...no core,

On the other hand now I m running a 2009 Lazzara 84 skylounge. The performance is just incredible... We burn 60gph st 18kts on 39% load. 75 at 20kts and around 90 at 23/24kts. Top speed is over 30kts What is incredible is that this is achieved with no trim tabs (as in... there none installed) and with no more than 3 degree boat rise getting on plane. Bring the engines slowly to 1600 and within seconds you have to look at the GPS to see you're already running 19kts while you can still hear people talking in the galley from the skylounge without raising their voices.

But the Lazzara is over performing tanks to a very well balanced hull and a cored bottom .

I looked at the 86 Johnson for the current owners of the Lazzara and the layout just wasn't what they needed... Never liked at the perfomance in details.