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Transfer title to LLC and refinance the boat....?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Norseman, Jul 20, 2016.

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  1. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Thinking about doing an occasional charter with my boat and it seems a good idea to transfer the title to my LLC.
    The finance company US Bank did not like the idea, they said I have to apply for a new loan using their commercial division. Tried that but they can't help me as they have no branches in Florida. Called the biggest boat finance company, Essex, no cigar either, they don't do commercial loans.
    Most owners on this site probably have their boats titled to a company so this must be old hat..
    Any leads for a good finance company dealing in "commercial boats"?
  2. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    That's the standard Marine Finance position. Why would they allow you to transfer the loan collateral into a zero net worth LLC? They loaned you the money because they can go after you to pay back whatever they lose if the boat gets repossessed. An empty LLC? Not so much.
  3. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Assuming the boat would get repossessed?
    I don't operate that way and not used to that kind of operation.
    Call me naive.
    Surely some folks finance a company owned boat?
    How?
  4. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    I said... "if" ...it gets repossessed. You may not be used to that kind of operation but the banks are. When they loan money they like to have a contingency plan for getting it all back.

    Banks loan money everyday to companies with assets.
  5. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    A- Companies submit full financial information.

    or

    B-Individual Guarantees

    Now, companies also normally are able to deal with the bank they already do business with.

    I would think there probably are boats in LLC's that are financed and in the vast majority of cases, if not all, they are fully guaranteed by the individuals.

    In either case, you're seeking a new loan. As you've seen, they're not going to allow you just to change the names.
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Understand the primary reason to put a boat into an LLC is to limit personal liability. The bank isn't inclined to want you to limit that liability.

    Also, loaning on a boat that is going to be used for charter is a much different thing as is insurance. The moment you charter, your current insurance is likely not going to cover.
  7. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Right, but in the meantime I assumed the boat itself was enough collateral and asset enough to cover the loan in case of default, after all the lender sits on the title.
  8. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Yes, but of course the liability I try to avoid is from being sued in case of an accident, not from repaying the loan.
    (I always though a stellar credit score would open doors, I own the LLC and my responsibility for paying back loans has not changed)

    As for commercial insurance yes, I called my insurance broker today and she will get some numbers tomorrow.
    Also I will have to call my other insurance company to ask if the umbrella will pick up on a commercial operation.
  9. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    No, the boat isn't. The last thing the lender wants is to own the boat. They don't want to own it as it is, much less in the condition many repossessions are in.
  10. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Yes, your responsibility for paying back the loan does change when you move the boat to the LLC. It is limited to the assets you put in the LLC which is the boat. Your credit score doesn't apply to the LLC in any way. Now, some lender may agree to lend to the LLC with your personal guarantee.

    You likely have a personal umbrella so as written it will not cover the LLC.
  11. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Aye Mates, I can see where this is going now:
    The odds of keeping the boat financed in the LLC is slim to none, and Slim just left town:p

    Guess I have to pay off the loan before I move the boat to the safe harbor of the LLC but with the stock market not performing I was going to wait a while
    and get some return on my money first.
    (Timing the stock market, my speciality. Not) :rolleyes:
  12. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    S&P 500 at record high. The Dow also ...closed at 18595 today. A place it's never been before!
  13. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Then I'll share all my knowledge of it with you. It goes up. It goes down. Over time more up than down. The only person guaranteed to win is the house, in this case the broker. A lot like Vegas.
  14. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Lease the boat to your company.
    Your insurance will go up. But that will be a business deduction for both identities, you and the company.
  15. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    I know, but I invested a chunk of cash just in time for the Chinese stock market to crash, hence I am still up-side down.
    Almost back to neutral but lost 11 months.
    Would have been better off staying in cash,
    Timing is everything..
  16. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Thx, that is the extent of my knowledge as well.
    :D
  17. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Hmm, that may be a good idea.
    Lemme see, I keep the financing, and I keep the boat in my name, but lease it to my charter LLC. The lease payments are taxable as income after expenses such as insurance, boat payments, dock rent, maintenance and gas..
    The LLC gets charter income, but pays the Captain and the Lease payments and will probably show a loss?
    A business loss for more than 5 years becomes an expensive hobby in the eyes of the IRS.
    Is the LLC responsible for any accident or death or does the liability stay with the owner of the boat, and the operator even if the operator works for the LLC?
    (My head is hurting, I need a pro to guide me for sure. Maritime Lawer, or General Counsel, Business Attorney?)
    This seems like an initial headache, but could be fun in the long run as well as a good business write-off, and one may even make a few bucks on it, and it will keep me out of the bars...:D
  18. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    A business loss for more than 5 years becomes an expensive hobby in the eyes of the IRS.

    You think the company is going to make money if it was making it's own loan payment?

    Find a good tax advisor.
  19. Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    Got a good CPA, she has kept me out of jail for 25 years, don't know if she has expertise setting up a boat charter business, especially since she is in Dallas, TX. :)
  20. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    There is some profit and a lot of overhead. Remember when you charter, your boat is a partner and gets a very large share, even after gas and ice.
    This helps cover maintenance and upgrades. The captain is usually on the bottom if any money is left.

    If you want to get into a charter business, go mate on somebody's else boat.