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Advice on short-handing 27m Leopard

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Danvilletim, Dec 8, 2015.

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  1. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    We are looking for 70-80' boat to cruise Bahamas and east coast sometimes w crew and sometimes not. We trying to stay under a million and 2005 or newer and love euro styling. Most of the time we attend to putt around at 10knots.

    Can the boat be handled by a couple? ( current boat is 69 loa w no thrusters). Line of site seems worse than current sportfish, but all have bow thrusters and some stern.

    Any issues at running these engines Mtu 16v m92 at 10knots? Fuel burn on line stats 14g a side at 1000rpm which is 1000bhp. I can leave with that $$.

    Yes a trawler or RPH would be more practical, but trawlers don't do it for us and most RPH (. Like San Lorenzo sl82) are much more $s.

    Comments?
  2. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Are you looking at Jet Drives, Surface Drives or what? 2005 or newer for under a million could be difficult. Very few in the US.
  3. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Yes, you can run those motors at 1000 rpms and then run them at cruise 1/2 an hour every 4-6 hours and they should be ok. I second Olderboaters comment, if the Leapord has jet drives, forget running them at 1000 rpms, jets are horrible in-efficient and moving the boat at anything much slower than the normal cruise speed they're designed for. Arnesons OTOH generally are not, however Arnesons tend to be very spendy to maintain the drives. Arnesons are pretty efficient at hull speed, and cruise. Yes, it can be handled by a couple, but keep in mind both Arneson boats and jet boats are very difficult to dock and your line handler has to be good. It's a size that will really tax a couple keeping up with it.
  4. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    That's why I asked my questions. With either jets or surface, he's really talking about using the boat in a way very different from it's design intent. So, he would have to open up a bit every few hours but also thrusters are very important and I'd want bow and stern. With the boat properly set up with thrusters and cleats and lines and fenders where they need to be, then he could do what he's wanting to do.

    I've never been on one of the Leopard's but they're really a nice looking boat, I think. Well designed if you like galley down. They're built for speed and performance, not for trawler speeds but they can be used slowly. Now, very few of them are in the US. If you look at the ones for sale, there are many in Europe. This makes meeting his price point and year target nearly impossible in the US and difficult even if looking at European boats. The 2006 in Miami is asking $1,850,000. A 2001 is asking $1,390,000. Now in Europe there are some 2005 and newer in the $1.1 - $1.5 million range, while others asking far more than that.
  5. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    I'm talking Surface drives... All boats we are looking are in France / Spain... Which there are over a dozen at this price range. 50-60K to ship..... $50K for Atlas. A couple weeks of Med time before hand.


    Curious.
  6. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Have you been on one? I'm curious about performance and ride. Haven't even found any reviews to look at.
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Surface Drives = Arnesons (Arneson is the major manufacturer but there are other brands).

    With surface drives you can do hull speed and efficiently, however they're hard on the motors at hull speed on most yachts with them usually because you see much higher load factors because they're swinging a very big propellor and it's completely submerged at hull speed, because the drive is designed so only half of the propellor is in the water at fast speeds and the other half is not submerged. So typically you're using half of the propellor for top speed/rpms. Generally, most of these yachts have to be run at cruise speed to stay on plane, below that like if cruise is 2000rpms and you drop down to 1850 rpms, many of them will gradually slow down and slow down over several minutes and then fall off of plane. Depending on the boat/hull if you drop below 27 knots +/- they fall off of plane....some of the new hulls can stay on plane at 20-24 knots. They don't have any propellors under the hull to provide stern lift, they rely on mostly hull speed to keep the boat on plane. The boats are very efficient when running. I worked out the numbers on a 59' Baia I manage and at cruise and top speed we're seeing less than 1% prop slip. Problem is you have to run the old girl 90% load to keep her at 27 knots.

    But it's kind of like using a Ferrari as a daily driver. Arneson boats are fun to run and fast. But expensive to maintain and can be maintanence heavy and headaches. For example if you don't work the drives up and down and turn the steering from side to side every week or two, growth causes the seals to leak and then the boat needs to be hauled and they need to be replaced. If the props have a few barnacles on them, they won't get on plane on most of them.

    Quite honestly, if you're looking in Europe and that's the type of boat you're looking for. You can find big Sunseeker Predators with traditional drives for much less money and a better boat......look at 2005-2008 Sunseeker Predators 74-85' or even the 70'+ Manhattans and 75'/82' Sunseeker yacht if you want a flybridge boat.....the predators are priced well under $1 mill, and the Manhattans around $1 mill. They're great sea boats and a lot less headache than an Italian built Arneson boat.
  8. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    There are a many more leopards 27s in France and only 3 Predators.. I do agree the Predators with the Shaft drive and CAT C32s are much more sensible.

    I like the interiors much more on the Leopards but will make sure to give the predators a peek. BTW.. Its pretty amazing to see the price difference between US and Europe on these boats..
  9. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    The Predators have four cabins but no lower salon where as the Leopards have 3 cabins plus the lower salon...Both galley down.
  10. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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  11. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    I may be wrong here but I always considered surface drives and water jets in a league of one kind; to go fast...
    There is no mid or slow speed efficiencies and are poor in handling at less than warp speed.
    Again it's my thoughts; you want to slow down a big boat down (LSD) and gain MPG she needs simple straight drive lines with propellers.
  12. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Slow is clearly not what they're designed for.
  13. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Back to the start of the thread a moment. You mentioned 70-80', but then the discussion has centered around an 89' Leopard.

    If you found a Predator you liked, it might not be a difficult task to turn a cabin into a salon. However, it wouldn't be connected to the galley and that's something I think is probably important. If I cook down (which isn't my galley preference but we do have on one boat), then I don't want to have to carry it up to the main deck to eat.
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    That's because the lower salon is a COMPLETE waste of space and time. We have galley down and lower salon and upper salon on the 62' Predator I manage and between 2 owners and 4 years, it was used exactly once. It's like being in a cave and nobody ever wants to sit down there, and I mean ever.

    There are a ton of Sunseekers for sale in Europe if you expand your search beyond france. The reason the Leapords are cheap is because they're expensive to maintain between the drives and everything.
  15. olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Yes, but the owners you mention don't eat on the boat. That's the only time I see the lower salon having added value is for a meal. We do use our lower salon on the Riva for meals sometimes. However, our combined salon/dinette/galley is decent sized and not like being in a cave. Now with the limited area and limited galley, we don't cook as much on that boat as others. Most of our cooking is also up and using a grill, and then bringing the rest of the food up. Another reason I don't like lower galley. But many people do. Now the OP has to consider the salon issue and his preference.
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The new owners cook on the boat once in a while and they never use the lower salon either.....it has a nice sized table, settee, could easily sit 8 people, it's not a tight area.....but NOBODY uses it. You can't see out of the boat at all, and feels like you're in a cave.....
  17. Ryan Schmidt

    Ryan Schmidt New Member

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    Hello,

    I'm brand new to this forum. I'm considering purchasing a 1999 27M Leopard. Danville, did you ever purchase the Leopard? The one I'm looking at needs a new interior and a new paint job. It may also need new engines, the current engines may not be able to be rebuilt as it they did take on some water and haven't been turned for awhile. If anybody owns a comparable Leopard, I would be interested in connecting!
  18. Danvilletim

    Danvilletim Senior Member

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    I never bought. Had a moment of clarity that such a but has a lot of sex appeal but you give up a ton. Fuel economy is next level bad (150-180 GPH) and the boat won't really run well at a lower speed. Resell on these boats are not great. I don't think you come anywhere close to getting your money back if you have to repower. Sound like a $1m refit for a both barely worth $1.3m if there were no issues.