50' yacht for long range cruising

There is no 50' Power Boat I would want to cross the Atlantic in and that includes Nordhavn. I'd probably choose KK ahead of them if I had to and if 55' was allowed then Fleming. But I wouldn't want to cross in a 55' Fleming. Personally it would have to be their 65', the one Tony Fleming uses. If I was going to do it in a Nordhavn, it would need to be their 76' or at least something over 60'.

This isn't to me just a safety issue but safety and not ruining boating forever to one. Read a complete book of someone who participated in the Nordhavn Atlantic Rally. Especially, when you read notice the number of boats that when they stepped off the boat, they decided to put the boat immediately for sale and the wife even, in at least one situation, declared she'd never get back on any boat. This was with them having relatively calm conditions. No severe weather. Then think of a 50' in 20' waves. If you're not comfortable with that thought then one shouldn't do it. Also, without the engineer and medical professional there, many would have had serious problems. So on any crossing a knowledgeable, expert crew is needed.

Boating is recreation. It's fun. When you try to do something beyond your or your boat's capability (and beyond yours comes first), then you run a great risk of destroying that.

My list of clients with trawlers under 60' who have successfully and happily crossed oceans from:
1. Ca. to Marquesas and back 2. FLL to Phuket 3. China to Australia 4. Ca. to Med 5. Circumnavigation 6. FLL to Portugal 7. NY to Holland

Manufacturers include Bering, Cape Horn 57, Krogen 54, Yachtsmiths 55, deAlms 46, and Nordhavn 46.

Judy

It's done all the time, but not for the average boater, and certainly not for a boater with the limited experience of the OP. I would definitely choose some of the boats you listed over the Nordhavn 46 for the trip.

Our ocean crossing is still ahead. At least two or three years before we will do so. Loop is our next big adventure either 2016 or 2017. Meanwhile enjoying the coasts and the Bahamas.

"now that I know crossing the Atlantic is not a simple matter, I will scratch that off the list."

Something to keep in mind is that everything you read here (and everywhere else) is just an opinion based on that writer's experience, knowledge, personality, character, fear, obsessions, etc., there were some young guys that crossed the Atlantic in a 55' boat, you can read about here:

http://www.flemingyachts.com/owners/stories3.html

Most likely if those guys that made that crossing had read most of this thread and took personal all the opinions, that is what they are, opinions, they would have never made the trip, boating is similar to life, different to each person, everyday at sea is different from all others, knowing what you want, planning, reading, preparing is very important but the most important thing is your willingness to try and experience first hand, I second gr8trn, start with something you already know and experiment with what you do not know, when born nobody knows how to walk and yet, most of us can run now.

"Well, let me put it this way. IN a 50' yacht, doing a transatlantic could be the trip of your life, or the last trip of your life."

Back in 1912 a few hundred people did the last trip of their life doing a transatlantic in a way bigger and designed to cross oceans vessel than a 50' yacht, more like 882 feet 9 inches, it can happen just about anywhere prepared or not, there is also the story of 3 Elling 49' crossing the Atlantic and arriving safely:

http://seamagazine.com/Archive/Elling-E4

Good post!
"Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore."
Andre Gide

A good read on the subject, it on a 42' yacht:


How to Plan a Transoceanic-Worthy Helm on a Budget
By Daniel Harding

The Principal and the Crossing Guard

A former educator used careful planning to find a helm setup within his budget for a Transatlantic cruise to the Baltics and beyond on his Kadey-Krogen 42.
In life, most people fall into two categories. On one side you have dreamers, those who spend decades wondering what it would be like to sail off into the sunset. Then there are the doers, those that leave excuses on the dock and seek out their next adventure. Richard Bost falls smack dab in the center of life’s Venn diagram. For decades he devoured magazines and books about long-distance cruising, waiting for his chance to chase the sunset.

• Builder: Kadey-Krogen

Those dreams sustained him as he toiled and saved, working as a meteorologist, then a teacher and principal in a rough-and-tumble school in the Bronx. After dealing with what he calls, “year after year of the same recurring issues,” he decided it was time to go to sea. But he wasn’t looking to do the standard Caribbean voyage. No, Bost’s sights were set on Northern Europe.

Richard Bost dreamed of cruising far and wide; careful electronics planning lets him do that safely.
It took him seven years of searching for the right boat, one that would allow him to live aboard and handle large seas in comfort; he ultimately chose a 1980 Kadey-Krogen 42. After a couple years of coastal cruising, Bost was ready to head for Europe. His helm was not.

A voracious reader and thorough researcher, he knew early that his budget wouldn’t allow him to purchase the latest multifunction displays used by many of his fellow Kadey-Krogen owners.

“I made the decision to go with a dedicated computer system with a a solid-state drive that ran almost all the boat’s electronics. This would allow me to use Coastal Explorer for my charts, which had great reviews and ratings and it would integrate my AIS and other electronics into the one navigation program,” Bost says. “I got my computer from Island Time PC in Florida, who custom-built a machine for me. Then I got 24-inch Samsung LCD monitors that would run on 12-volt DC; they’ve been wonderful. My computer is 12-volt DC, too. I wanted to migrate everything I could to a 12-volt system.”

To further mitigate costs, Bost installed the computer monitors into the helm himself, something in which he takes considerable pride—and rightfully so. “I was in 20-plus-foot seas at one point and they didn’t move around inside the helm at all.”

Another reason for choosing Coastal Explorer was that it accepts C-MAP charts from Jeppesen, which Bost claims were the most affordable way to get worldwide coverage. “I got charts of all of Western Europe for $200. Other providers might only give you Ireland for $200 or England for $200.”

Borst achieved redundancy via a Navionics app on his tablet. Besides verifying that what he was seeing on C-MAP was correct, he found the brighter colors employed by Navionics to be especially helpful as fatigue and sleep deprivation took their toll during his ocean crossing.

Bost realized that he would need more than charts to cross the Atlantic in comfort, so he purchased and registered an EPIRB from ACR Electronics and invested in a Digital Yacht AIS transponder. He thought, briefly, about just getting the receiver to save some money but hindsight proved that the transceiver was worth its weight in gold on his ocean crossing.

“The number-one thing I think people should have is a transceiver,” he says. “The fact is that most people who only get a receiver to save money really get a false sense of security because the bigger issue isn’t you seeing another boat, it’s another boat seeing you and not running you down.”


In order to avoid distractions and information overload while cruising,
Bost opted for a minimalist setup, leaving plenty of space for paper charts.
Bost went on to explain that prior to his cruise to Europe, during overnight shifts when he only had a receiver he felt as if most boats he came across were on a collision course with him. After installing a transceiver he noticed, “I wasn’t always the one who had to change course anymore; nearly every vessel I came across said ‘I’d rather not mess with this little boat,’ and their course changed before they got within 5 miles of me.” Of course, having AIS is no excuse for negligent navigating; Bost (like all boaters should) was always prepared to yield to the larger vessels he encountered.

This became especially important after Bost reached the Azores, which is where his wife—his only crew member—hopped on a plane for home in order to return to work. On subsequent night shifts he knew his AIS would pick up nearby ships and alert them to his presence. It continued to be useful while cruising off the coast of Ireland, because the European Union requires all fishing and commercial vessels to be equipped with AIS. “When I got to Ireland and started to talk to the fisherman there, they almost all agreed that the transceiver had changed their lives for the better too,” he says.

Another piece of equipment that gave Bost the boost of confidence needed to make the crossing from the Azores to Ireland solo was his 2006 Raymarine radar. It wasn’t just because his radar was reliable that gave him peace of mind, but because he was intimately familiar with that system thanks to persistent practice.

“I’m a big believer, and maybe this is because of my weather background, but to understand your instruments you have to use them all the time. So, whenever my engines turn on, my radar goes on,” says Bost. “When the weather is perfect and I can see everything, I want to see how things show up on my radar. This way when it’s foggy or nighttime I’ll have a sense of, ‘Oh that’s a wave, and that’s a small boat.’”

Sky’s the Limit
We asked Bost a pointed question: If money were no object, what piece of electronics gear would you spring for?
After a long, uncharacteristic pause, Bost replied: “I don’t mean to sound egotistical but I think what I have now works for me. I mean, a year ago I definitely would have added full satellite-communications capability, but the middle of the ocean can be a peaceful place without e-mail. I guess I’d get new radar. Though mine is reliable, I’d probably replace my nine-year-old model with a high-definition version.

This practice also allowed him to fine-tune his radar alarm to his particular liking. During a calm start to his crossing he ran with his alarm on and it was giving off nearly ten false alarms a day. He made the conscious decision that every time he spotted a ship he would turn the gain way down until the disturbance disappeared and all that was left was the ship. This practice paid off; during the much rougher passage from the Azores he only had only one false alarm.

While radar and AIS gave him peace of mind, it was his handheld DeLorme InReach SE that Bost says saved his sanity. Forgoing onboard satellite communications, again to cut costs, it was the InReach that kept him in touch with the real world, and only at a time of his choosing. After spending decades preparing for this trip Bost didn’t want to spoil his time at sea by talking to those he purposely left back on land. “When everything goes to hell I don’t want people calling me to ask if I’m OK. I’d rather lick my wounds in privacy like a cat,” says Bost laughing. “If we really needed advice on something I had the $60 unlimited texting plan so we could connect with a few people.”


Among those people were meteorologist friends that would send him the lat/lon of high- and low-pressure systems and the system’s pressure. From there he could draw a map and know what was coming his way. He also signed up for OCENS SpotCAST on his InReach. That system sends a prewritten text with your position to a service that returns a basic forecast with wind, wave, and precipitation predictions.

At the time of this writing, Bost has returned to Ireland—where he’ll leaveDauntless for the winter—after cruising the Baltics. This near-arctic adventure would be enough to satisfy most people’s wanderlust, but not so for Bost. His saloon bookshelf and nightstand are filled with dog-eared books with pictures of the South Pacific on the covers. “Who knows, maybe I’ll teach English to kids in Korea when I get there,” says Bost with a casual and sincere emphasis on the word when. One thing is certain, with enough planning and the right electronics, nothing will keep this dreamer from becoming a doer.

I'm very familiar with his crossing and before someone is misled I think it's important to note that there are some serious aspects very much glossed over and there are at least two of us on his site who consider him extremely lucky to have made it from the Azores to Ireland. There were various dangers presenting themselves during that single handed portion including fuel, disorientation resulting in doing a circle and others.

The point is that just because someone makes it across doesn't mean doing it the same way they did is necessarily wise. Many have made successful crossings in boats or in circumstances that others would question the wisdom of. Specifically, I'd never recommend an ocean crossing single handed as he did from the Azores to Ireland.

Now as to the boat, I think the Kadey Krogen 42 is certainly capable of an ocean crossing. It's proven that on more than one occasion. Capt J pointed out above that the boats in that size range that can do it would be full displacement hulls like KK. All the KK's are built to class A and while that is no guarantee of seaworthiness I do think being of a lesser class is a warning. I'd be comfortable in a KK 55 or 58 if I wanted a displacement boat. They will perform probably better than their operators in most cases. I would pick both KK and Fleming over similar sized Nordhavn's. Now a larger Nordhavn I'd be comfortable in. I don't care how many 47's have done it, I've read too much of the stories of their crossings to want to copy them.

Hoping Capt Bill who is also familiar with this story will pop in and offer any comments he has.

Saw that article in a recent (I think) Power & Motoryacht...

-Chris

I know a couple that has been plowing the world's oceans in a 28' wooden sail boat for DECADES, with no motor.

Yup.

Yes, well hats off to Richard for making the trip across. But I have to question his decision making process on a number of things.

While his trip shows crossing the Atlantic can be done in a small power boat, IMO, luck was on his side for much of it. And some simple steps that could have made it safer were omitted for some odd reasons.

Just because some one tries something and makes it, doesn't mean others should repeat it the same way and expect the same results.

I've read stories of sailors crossing single handed in small boats with virtually no experience. The fact they survived was as much or more luck than skill. Now one thing we don't read is the story of those who don't make it, so we only get the success stories.

No crossing is going to be 100% safe and even the least prepared will succeed at least 10% of the time. What I'd just encourage is moving the odds as far in your favor as you can reasonably do. There are many ways of doing that and some of them cost extravagant amounts but others are far more affordable.

Awhile back, around the late 70s - early 80s, Motorboating & Sailing had a great article on an owner who took deliver of his 40' Cheoy Lee trawler from the factory, then proceeded to deliver her through the Suez Canal/Med to the eastern USA, with the help of 1 person. Before the Nordhavn craze. Unstabilized, I believe, with a problematic autopilot requiring mostly to be hand steered.

Quite remarkable cover shot if any of you can remember

My how the adventurous spirit has changed with the advancement of technology, now we feel the need to eliminate all/any risk upfront. Like we really are in control. We know so much today we can't shake the need to know even more, its a miracle anything got done before gps.

Those guys (and gals) must have used up all the luck out there and left us to fend with our technological gadgets for guaranteed success

Or at least that's what the insurance companies want to hear.....

I think we know how today to couple adventurous spirit with controlled risk. I am not familiar with the model boat, but understand none of the concerns Bill and I are expressing with Richard's trip have anything to do with the choice of boat. The 42' KK was quite capable.

I would think anyone who makes a crossing should be able to think of things they would do differently to improve things the next time. Often those things are relatively small. It may be something as simple as more fuel. May be something slightly more difficult such as finding someone to crew so you're not single handed. None of that changes the adventure aspect. Technology also had nothing to do with my concerns or issues.

I would bet those on the Cheoy Lee would say if they could change one thing it would be a backup autopilot.

When I read a story of adventure like some of these, I learn from their sense of adventure, but I also read and learn from any problems they had or things that could have been done better.

As to your mention of the Nordhavn craze, in the 40-70' range, there are many boats I'd personally choose over Nordhavn for the trip. The Atlantic Crossing definitely showed the advantage of having an engineer on one boat and having a doctor on another. It also showed the negatives of having stabilizers when you have not worked out the bugs. Last, I think in some cases it showed that middle age and older couples might not be happy with the trip on a 40' or 47'. Apparently Nordhavn learned not to do it again.

There is no guaranteed success and success isn't dependent on technology.

Understand this thread started with crossing the Atlantic in a 50' Sea Ray. Now change that to a 55' Fleming and it's a different story. Or to a 42' KK.

I found the reference to the 40 Cheoy Lee that delivered on her own bottom :

http://www.cheoyleeassociation.com/Power/Power40longra.htm

A great read if you have the October 1978 Motorboating & Sailing back issue handy. I have to hand it to the owner / operator, at 38,000 pounds she certainly was no heavyweight.

And yes, he would **** sure carry the necessary spares for the Autopilot on his next trip. If I recall correctly, the toughest part of his journey was the trip through the Suez Canal with the wind on his nose the whole time and plenty of traffic, hand steering the whole way.

OB, that is quite a knock on Nordhavn, considering they have more collective blue water under their keels than most. Personal enjoyment /comfort levels becomes a subjective topic. But that has been addressed on previous posts.

Well, I've read the full story of the Atlantic Crossing. They have worked out the bugs with stabilizers over the last ten years so that wouldn't be the problem it was. It's also partially a knock on the people who took the trip, many of whom really had no appreciation for what they were going to face. Nordhavn's do have a lot of bluewater miles on them, but most of that is being done today by 63's, 68's and 72's. Fun to follow some of the blogs of those boats. I know several owners of 40's-47's and the ones I know personally wouldn't attempt an Atlantic Crossing in their boat. A couple of them are thinking of their next Nordhavn in which they might, a larger one. But in their current boats they're cruising coasts and the Caribbean.

KK and Fleming are not as good as Nordhavn in the publicity department.

+1
Too many people are full of fear. Too many children are being brought up to fear.
Adventure is missing in our safe society.
Competence, experience and common sense. Paper charts as well as GPS. Good planning and contingency.
There is nothing more fulfilling than adventure.
I have a good friend who has sailed a few Sydney to Hobart races and also sailed the Southern Ocean extensively. I would go with him on a good yacht, sail or power. Point is: it comes down to the people plus a seaworthy vessel. Without the right people even the best boat is a danger.

In the 70s, I recall Jim Wynne crossing the Atlantic in a 30' Cutter, production trailer boat, 8' beam, with a single Volvo Penta diesel stern drive, as a marketing stunt. So when people ask how big do you have to be to cross the Atlantic, it becomes quite apparent that the operator skills are more important than the size of his boat. Get an expert on the water boater and put him in a funky trailerboat, and there you go. Were there is a will, there is a way!

We also know Bruce Kessler took his 48' Pacemaker SF, added a 2' cockpit extension, and went from LA to Hawaii. The background case for his all oceans 70' Delta Zopilote, a trend setter itself.

These are just a few examples of adventurous, even visionary people, doing more with what we now consider less. Not everyone's cup of tea, but an indicator of possibilities.

OB your comment on the size of Nordhavn's increasing that are now putting on blue water miles is interesting - maybe the talent pool that did the global cruising in their bell weather 46' is all dried up now, that cross-over sailor who could go the distance without too many of the creature comforts that are so valued today?