Passenger Yacht Code

Having not heard about this new breed I decided to have a little read. I am now curious as to what the real intent of the Passenger Yacht Code is, while I see that it may be relevant on very large yacht I am thinking that it could be abused when dealing with true passenger carrying vessels ( 12 pax and above ) that are intended for real commercial.

I do not think that the abuse would come from the yachting arena but more likely from smaller merchant shipping companies. It appears to me that the code is a blurring of the lines and requirements between yachting an merchant shipping. My concern is that in doing so that some unscrupulous merchant ship owner / manager might see a loophole to exploit without due consideration for the potential consequences.

Personally I miss the days when yachting was essentially unregulated and there was a very clear line between merchant / commercial and yachting. I always felt that the term "commercial yacht" is an oxymoron, it was no doubt the beginning of the blurring of the lines is this just the next step ?

I am 110% with that.

I do agree in general with the above.

But even on a private yacht, never used for charter, as soon as paid crew is involved, regardless of size, certain safety and social standards have to be adhered to. The LY2 / LY3 standard is a good and mandatory guidline for yards and owners and should not be "watered down". Anything above that is SOLAS/IMO/STCW, period. As far as I know, with the LY3 the 3.000 GT has fallen, that takes care of the very large yachts. If somebody wants for example 36 passengers on his yacht, can build a passenger vessel.

The good old maximum number of passengers / guests border of 12 souls is still a valid figure for yachts and merchant vessels. Anything above that should be concidered a (SOLAS) passenger vessel with all associated rules and regs.

Pushing the limits with the so called staff cabins is questionable already but those Mini cruise ships or SOLAS Meagayachts are treated as passenger vessels for good reasons. Safety (for all souls onboard) and social standards (for crews) should not be negotiable.

During the pre container age, we had combined multi purpose cargo / passenger vessels with a max. of 12 passengers. Those passengers were pampered to the highest standards and all cabins were completly booked years in advance, especially on the South America and Asia routes. More passengers would have hampered trading to much. But with the pure box carriers and their special schedules, the service got uninteresting for passengers. Modern cargo ships have only one or two passenger cabins, called the owner cabin.

But their is a large market for small very luxury cruise ships with megayacht quality. People want to charter a megayacht exclusively but take their large family / entourage plus staff on that charter and tell the captain where to go. This is fully ok but then build a small passenger vessel with all the amenities of a megayacht but with all the safety standards and rules of a SOLAS passenger vessel. The capable yards are just waiting for such orders.

Below an example of a typical combined Cargo / passenger vessel during the very last years of that aera.

Cap San Class

Yes, that is one of the Cap San Class ships, the Cap San Diego. The last one of those beautifull ships is moored in Hamburg as a floating museum and kept in navigable state by a non profit association, which I am a proud member and active sponsor of. We do some cruises with her once or twice a year with volunteer crew members and are allowed to take passengers on limited costal day cruises based on her certification as an historical ship. When moored as a museum ship, visitors can crawl all over the ship without guide from the mast down to shaft tunnel as long as they want during opening hours. The cargo spaces are used for concerts and parties. Tourists love that ship, because upon entering the ship, you feel like in a time shift 40 years back, as everything on the ship is in its original state at her last journeys.

If you are in Hamburg, just take the chance to visit her. Your entrance fee will help us, keeping her afloat.

Marmot, I agree, this work around procedure driven by profit reasons, called PYC, will compromize social aspects of crews as far as accomodations, manning, working hours and off duty time is concerned. Safety will in the end be compromized by crew qualification and training, rescue equipment (both in quantity and quality) and passengers might be affected due to lower medical services onboard (no medical doctor required and no ships hospital, just sick bay) and lower requirements in fire resistant interior.

A large megayacht with 36 guests plus adequate number of crews may have some 70 or 80 or even more souls on board. That is a little cruise ship and not a yacht.

My country does not recognize any large yacht code at all. A yacht is a pleasure boat below 24 Meters London load line length, period. Anything above that is a ship with paid crew and commercial rules apply, end of story. In this matter, our authorities are less flexible than a railway track. That is the major reason, why German owners of large yachts can not fly their own flag, besides some little VAT and other tax problems .

Finally Marmot, below some nice memories from the good old days:

Hi,

You should really check facts from fantasy before posting.

There have been builds even from the yard where you claim to have inside info that are way over 3000 GT and 16 Passengers that run quite comfortably without a SMC, ISM or any other formal control.

And the typical operating routine of many charter and private yachts is crazy. Yacht crew like commercial crew needs to be fresh to do their job well. I was shocked when we first got interested in larger boats and heard the hours some crew members work.

I am sure about that. Very large yachts like Eclipse are good examples .

Maybe my point of view is far too much merchant shipping minded in this matter.

Why worry about new rules, many yards have piles of metal sheets in their stores, stamped already with a hull number, to build many more yachts according to the previous rules.

I have been thinking for some time about the manning situation as to a private yacht and the comments hear bear out my concerns. As you all know recently the crew spaces have been "increased" by regulation. I believe if is now 7 sq. meters per crew and private cabins.

The issue of crew fatigue usually is not an issue for a private yacht as the owner cannot really use it enough to tire out he crew. Except for a long cruise or a live-aboard situation. A week here or there a few times a year is no big deal of suffering by the crew to put up with the owner aboard.

But going to a commercial use of a yacht it is different... and the crew fatigue issue would be a concern. Also, the smallness of cabins and crew space often makes me cringe... as they are humans and not machines to be put away. What's discussed here certainly bears out some consideration. Really in that kind of situation you need two or three crews to rotate out. In fact, the best would be to have a service vessel following along and rotate out on a shift basis.

As to HTM09 comments about the olden days in commercial shipping. My grandfather as a Master very much enjoyed the passenger aspect for what he told me.

Just one question from someone uninitiated. I have been wondering this since quite a while.
Yachts are allowed to carry max. 12 guests on board unless they are built according to the PYC or registered as commercial ships, correct?

I am asking because all yachts built Silver yachts seem to accomodate more than 12 guests.
So let's take as an example their latest yacht, the 77m "Silver Fast" which is somehow allowed to cruise with 18 guests on board.

Her class: Lloyds+100A1, SSC, Yacht Mono, G6+LMC,UMS, MCA LY2

For me personally it appears to be a common classification for a commercial superyacht. (If I have read and understood it correctly)

Can anyone explain to me why she yet can accomodate 18 guests and is not limited to those 12 guests max. restrictions?

Lloyds+100A1. The + means it was built under special survey. Fully classed by Lloyd's. The 100 came from "lasts 100 years".

SSC means Lloyd's classified it as a Special Service Craft.

Yacht Mono means it's classified as a monohull yacht.

G6 means service group 6 with no restrictions and ocean going.

LMC is a Lloyd's Machinery Certificate meaning surveyed to their requirements.

UMS is unmanned machinery space, meaning the engine room doesn't have to be attended.

MCA LY2 means MCA has classified it per the large commercial yacht code which has now been updated to LY3.

If I have any of that wrong, someone please point it out.

Commercially classified yachts as in the example you gave are then not limited to 12 passengers. It's extra work if you're going to charter and most small charter boats don't go through it, but large one's will generally always be classed as show above.

It's easiest if you plan it before starting the build so that everything is directed toward it.

The underlying governing rules are SOLAS, the International Convention for Safety Of Life At Sea.

I might add that there are significant costs involved too but on larger boats insurers would require them anyway. It requires complete surveys every five years with an intermediate between years two and three.

Yes I know the terms of her classification but thanks Olderboater!

As you can see, LY2/LY3 classed vessels are also limited to the max. 12 passengers restriction:

11. The Code applies to motor or sailing vessels of 24 metres in load line length and over or, if built before 21 July 1968, which are of 150 tons gross tonnage and over and which, at the time, is in commercial use for sport or pleasure and which carries no cargo and no more than 12 passengers. 12. The Code only applies to vessels of less than 3000GT

So there is perhaps another reason for it? Correct me if am wrong.