Bertram Closing Merritt Island Facility?

Bertram replaced the same owners boat twice. He had a 57' that oil canned and ripped all of the stringers from the bulkhead, they gave him a 63' as a replacement where the hull side fell off, then they gave him a 70' to replace that which he immediately put up for sale. I would say the owner never really owned a boat, because he was without one most of the time. I also personally know of at least 15 boats that either delaminated, or all of the bulkheads tore away from the stringers. A LOT of them were swept under the rug and kept quiet......A LOT before anyone else knew. Heck the first 63' they built, the port engine tore the engine bed and mounts off of the stringers and was leaning into the aisle on it's maiden seatrial!

More news that I got is since 2 months ago, there have only been 2 employees at Bertram. A security guard and the plant manager who is inventorying all of their stuff to liquidate it. So at this point all Bertram is, is a name........much like the new Post, who hasn't built a single boat as far as I know.

I am well aware of that thread, like I said you still have to prove the 50 knot (not 50 mph) Jim Smith with Modified Bevins DD's 8V-92's, shaft size et al.

Real proof not just I read it on a thread. And a real GPS, not one of the oldies with the infamous "Yacht Broker" calibrations that where off a knot or two.

Those boats are fast, but a 40 knot cruise does not necessarily make a 50 knot boat. Show me a Bevin's or DD engine start-up sheet with the real deal numbers of a finished ready to go boat. Not a one time down-swell, 200 gallons of fuel, unfinished, no equipment on board never will see that number again run, and years later people saying I think we hit 50 knots. Need to see some documentation, just saying, otherwise send it to Mythbusters.....

As a brief addition to this list of fast SF's, in the late 1970's, Elliott out West took a Cary/Cigarette 50' hull maybe stretched to 55' and built a SF with highly modified 8V-92's by Peter Rothchild's engine company called TCX and I believe they hit the 50 - 55 mph barrier. Bright yellow hull with blue trim, called "Lemon Peel". Beautiful boat that eventual burnt to the waterline near Newport Beach, CA.

In those days Loran-C was the best available nav instrument so I doubt there are any GPS screen captures to prove the speeds. I heard of some time trials done on measured courses but of course those were in full race "trim".

As a custom builder, to my knowledge that 50 knot barrier has yet to be broken by a completed, fully equipped (but not necessarily fully loaded) hull with stock engines. 40 knot cruise is also often slightly exaggerated, depending on what kind of rev's you call cruise. I know of only two "big" (to us little guys K1W1 and Marmot!) SF boats in the 60-70' range that can make those speeds at anything less than 2000 rpm's and neither of those will top 50 unless stripped down with a different set of wheels. Those two are as far as I know the current two fastest big SF on the east coast (and I built one of them!).

Sorry for the continuing derail, back to Bertram?

to Bill106- I think everything has been discussed via Bertram, the company is out of business and there will be no new information unless someone buys the name and molds.

As Bill said, there was no GPS. And, even if they only made it to 48 knots not 50 knots, as you state, so what? It was still an amazing feat given the time period and what they had to work with. I lived and grew up in those days and saw those boats running in my "backyard". It was proven Bushwacker and Speed Merchant did those speeds. What I'm getting at and have been getting at is this. You look at how advanced those boats were both in design and building practices for what they had to work with. It's amazing how far advanced they were. Jim Smith pretty much invented the cold molding process they use today with the lack of fasteners. Aside from Jim Smith still using splined Monel shafts (I'm sure a few other custom builders are, but no production builders), none of the production builders or anyone has advanced technology-wise. Imagine what those 1970's and even 1980's Jim Smiths or Revenges would've done speed wise with 1150Hp Cat acerts or even lighter 1100hp Common rail Mans, instead of heavy DD 8v92s. Look at the fuel efficiency they got even back then......2 gallons per mile at cruise with a fully fish equipped 55-58' SF with 3 staterooms. If you took the tower off and threw it away they'd pick up 2 knots at those speeds. But they also rode better than a production SF of that era. Those guys were pioneers that were constantly pushing the envelope in design and boat building techniques. Jim smith did his hull designs on the living room floor of his house. Look at the first boat he built an express....The Tower buggy top lowered into the tower perfectly for wind resistance when it wasn't being used, the tower had an elevator to bring you up or down to the tower (the only other boat to have a tower elevator was Bull, Bernie Madoff's Rybovich)....the boat did between 35-40knots with the motors that were available then.......this was in 1959!!!!!!!!!!!!!Also things like Bushwacker had a windlass in the tackle center at the cockpit just for putting the tail rope attached to a big tuna or Marlin on and winching the fish into the boat quickly and efficiently.

The current crop of custom SF's today have a lot better HP to weight ratio engines to work with. Better coring materials possibly and layup techniques (vaccuum bagging). Better design with cad cam etc, computer models. But they also have a lot more to contend with, people want a lot more heavy equipment that didn't exist back them (eskimo ice makers, granite counter tops etc.) While the new custom SF are still at the same speeds. It just seems like everyone simply is doing what they have always done, copying what everyone else is doing, and nothing is progressing. I just keep seeing the production builders throwing more and more HP (and fuel usage) into a given size boat to get more speed, without even looking at reducing weight or a better more efficient hull design.......


I worked on the Gina Lisa 75 when it was near new, it had 2.5" splined shafts for 2000hp 16v2000's. Everyone else uses 4". That right there is free speed and fuel efficiency (albeit the shafts are more expensive). Yet you don't see anyone doing it. You don't even see production builders use a sea-chest, which is a great invention so long as the a/c seawater intake has it's own thru-hull........

What I'm getting at. Nobody currently is pushing the envelope either in design or performance or even really fuel efficiency. A few of the raceboat guys were/are, but none of the SF guys seem to be anymore.......

Just to be sure Capt J I meant no disrespect whatsoever to any of the builders! Jim was certainly one of the pioneers and I was fortunate to have both known him and listened when he gave me advice about boatbuilding long ago. Rich (Scheffer) is also a good friend and I have crawled through the bilges of all the Speed Merchants while they were being built, raced them a time or two and even did some maintenance for Mitch on the Mayaca when he couldn't get outboard of those 183's down in Chub one winter. I was a lot smaller and more flexible then!

There are still some of us smaller guys out here trying to push the envelope still and the big boys are paying attention too. Granted the changes are almost infinitesimal compared to the old days but even some of us Carolina rednecks are splining shafts, bagging laminates and coring countertops now!

No disrespect taken. Merritt's has been coring counter tops for at least 5 years but they still can't seem to find a 35 knot cruise speed. hehehe.....

Yeah, there are a few guys currently, yourself included.......but my point was it was an amazing feat back then with what those guys previously mentioned achieved. It seems that nobody is really thinking out of the box like they were and trying to go to that next level. I almost wonder if a certain hull designer (which I won't name) who does design a very good hull in terms of ride, seakeeping and so forth, has truely peaked in terms of speed. Another thing I wonder, is why haven't any of the SF builders experimented with steps and things of that nature.

You look at the MY expresses.........What Fountain achieved with the 48' express yacht is truely impressive when you look at the comforts (2 staterooms etc. and amenities both in the cockpit area and elsewhere). It will top out at 63 mph, cruise at 50 mph getting 1.4mpg, and has a great ride. You compare that to your typical motoryacht express builders.......searay, cruisers, formula and they're all stuck at cruising under 35mph.....or 30 knots......

DEMAND.

Simply answer. Speed was and is a niche market. Searay, Cruisers, and Formula are not niche marketers. The amount of business Fountain does is immaterial to them. The SF market is the Viking, Hatteras, Cabo, etc. market. Jim Smith has a very small target group. A 38' Fountain CC runs 75 mph. But how many times has Fountain either gone out of business, filed bankruptcy or been sold in a distressed sale?

There simply isn't any mass demand for the faster speeds. We have a 50+ knot boat on the lake, but we settled and are happy with 40 knots on the coast. Well, we do actually have a tender that runs 46 knots or so, but we don't run it often at that speed.

Actually the last Speed Merchant Rich built did have a stepped hull and it worked as advertised by the NA he hired. Way before splashing I asked him if he was worried and he slyly smiled and said his "normal" bottom was underneath the Divinycell steps and if it was a disaster he would just grind them off. That's planning ahead for contingencies!

Oh, and I've got a design for a big SF with a centerline turbine/steerable jet combo with auxiliary wing engines using retractable surface drive units for trolling/maneuvering that will work and definitely push the envelope! I've even solved all those pesky "issues" with intake air that caused so many problems with previous attempts at turbine power for SF's. Maybe someday...

But see the speed is a by-product of efficiency. The faster they are the more efficient they tend to be and the less fuel burn they tend to have. Actually on production SF most that are selling are still being ordered with the largest powerplant and most fuel burn....trying to get the most speed........The current day custom SF boats run faster using 60% of the fuel burn per mile of the production boats. Fuel economy is a real concern for a lot of people, but they have not put 2+2 together. Another reason SF are not selling like they used to is precisely operating cost.

That boat is very very impressive. 67' Tribute with only 1000HP Cat C18's 36 knot cruise at 85gph, very fuel efficient for a 67' SF at 2.4 gallons per mile........and 47 knot top end. I bet if she had 1150HP acert C18's, or 1100HP Man's, she'd easily top 50 knots......

And they cost considerably more. Oh people care about fuel burn but they care more about price. And many lack the patience to wait for custom.

Well, our exchange was about the 50 knot myth and you have not said anything that changes my mind, there is no proof that they were a true 50 knot boats, no knock on them for their efforts. The myth lives on.


There is a certain amount of physics that your comments tend to by-pass, and if they could do it back then on a pair of 800 hp engines why aren't they (custom SF) guys doing it now?

There is more technical hydrodynamic analysis done today that pushes the edge than those guys had access to. They built them light and "just" strong enough, or sometimes NOT strong enough and they could NOT maintain the speeds in any sort of sea state without structural issues. Impacts/ accelerations/ g-loads were just not as well understood. One of the few to reach out to the low hp/low weight idea was Revenge Yachts as you mentioned, with a carbon fiber hull and they only built 3 and did not break 50 knots. I believe the founder recently passed, God bless him.

It reminds me of the lessons we learned from the US Navy after WW2, the US Destroyers could outrun the Russians in smooth water, then the sea state would increase and all the US Admirals could do was to watch the Russian Navy pull away when the going got rough. Never again they said, smooth water top speed was shelved for better sea keeping , and they gained back supremacy with the new class of Destroyers.

I love that boat building era as much as you do, but do not overly romanticize the era. A late 60's Mustang Shelby GT 500 is a sweet ride, but can not handle the heat from a new version. Look at old Corvette's versus todays', no contest!

A splined propeller shaft is pretty basic stuff from a machinist's background, Monel is pretty low tech compared to AQ 22 HS, and the new wake-adapted struts and rudders are light years ahead of that old stuff. Coring of countertops has been alive and well since at least 1990. There is a reason why gear ratios that are 1.2 - 1.5 and the associated decrease in shaft diameters are not used, and today you see the ratios going from 1.75 up to 3.5, or even more from Hatteras, with the shaft diameters having to increase as well. The physics behind propeller design can not handle the 50 knot magic marker at gear ratios of 1.5 and below, cavitation and erosion occur with dramatic drops in propeller efficiency at WOT.

I will say this - the high speed custom SF market (not to be confused by the Offshore Performance boat markets) has not kept pace with the technology advance that the sail industry has achieved. Those Volvo 60/70 footers planing at 30+ knots are mind blowing, to say the least.

If you call going 22 knots going fast in a 54' Bertram at cruise with 12v92's drinking 120GPH......The same size/era Jim Smith could still do 25 knots in that and ride better.....Even today in a new 74' Viking you're slowing down to 20-25 knots in 6' seas.......A boat does not need to be heavy to have a good ride, it's all about hull design and a somewhat lack of weight actually so the weight doesn't overcome the proper amount of hull lift.....

I've already answered the questions, you've failed to read the answers because you're so hell bent on trying to disprove something 50 people in the industry have said is true.

I agree and that was my point of the initial post, until you went down this soapbox, with a 35 year old axe to grind.

I have no 35 year old axe to grind J, nice dance but you are bouncing back and forth between Production and Custom to make your own case that is not backed by fact.

The 60/63 Hatteras GT can do many of the things you say the production boats can't and I have ridden them and talked with their captains. Today's custom Sf are state of the art and owe their lineage to what we are talking about, but are more versatile with the increase in outfitting and the need to travel to more locations.

Give it a rest, you are beating your own dead horse.

I have'nt ridden on both the Hatteras 60/63, I've RUN both of them and put both of them through their paces completely, including backing down until the sea is at the top of the covering boards. Nice boats they are, a custom boat they are not. The 60' only cruises at 32 knots at 120GPH with just a hardtop. In comparison a 2003 ish 63' Sonny Briggs with 820 Mans I ran in the Exumas one day cruised at 31knots at 90 gph. The boats also has a heavy sluggish production boat feel in comparison to a new custom SF, especially in regards to backing down. In fact I had a customer who ordered a 63' and requested larger rudders be put on the boat.

I do agree the new custom SF are state of the art in terms of outfitting and being able to travel to extended places and for longer. My entire point is they really have not evolved further from their roots in the 1970's and 1980's much in terms of speed and fuel efficiency, of which you've agreed also. One of my favorite boats is a 2003 75' Jim Smith, which makes it from Palm Beach, FL to NYC in 2 days flat......just running daylight hours and it burns 4 gallons per mile which is pretty good for a custom......

As to Olderboater, the good custom SF are in demand and the market is driving them...... Jim Smith, Bayliss,Merritt and others have a 2+ year waiting list right now......Also re-sale on the customs is much better than the production boats, look at what the good customs bring on the used market. Many custom owners buy a temporary boat to play with while their custom is being built. I had one that had a 54' Hatteras while his 63' Bayliss was under construction. With a custom, everything is built exactly to your specifications, from layout to number of staterooms, to furnishings, etc.

Another thought I ponder is a modern custom with smaller motors that cruises at 35 knots and chasing fuel economy instead of top speed. Something along the lines of a 60' and 2 gallons per mile at cruise. It's definately do-able with smaller motors and then you need less fuel and are carrying around less fuel weight...1000 gallons would net you 500nm range, 1200 gallons (ideally) would net you 600NM range.......Rich from Tribute said he could build a custom that way, to match the speeds of a similar production SF like your 60' Hatteras and come in at around the same build price......

Demand is relative. I don't call one or two boats a year as most custom builders are doing "demand." They are a small niche market. In demand based on their small market. As to re-sale, of course it is greater, as the price new was significantly greater too.

There are buyers for the custom SF. But add them all together and it's still a limited market. And specifically as we were talking about high speed, that demand remains limited for SF and for high performance boats of other types. There remain a few high performance boat builders but every year has one closing, one reorganizing, one being sold and ultimately there are just a few boats sold in that market each year.

Look, I will be the first to admit that I am very data driven, somewhat of a skeptic as an engineer, and still consider the 50 knot mark rarely if ever touched by the custom SF world. And the 50 knot myth has been supported by other more experienced posters on this thread. Your comments have taken us through the obstacle course of production and custom SF in a round about way, it feels like we started out at the Waffle House, went to Red Lobster for lunch, maybe visited Shula's Steakhouse for dinner and are back at Denny's.

Look at the boat test of the Hatteras 60GT:

http://www.******************.com/boat-tests/hatteras-60gt-convertible?tab=test

With Tower, 34 - 40 mph winds, 4 - 6 seas, and it burned 98 gph at 32 knots (1750 rpm) and can cruise up to 35 knots at about 1900 rpm and 112 gph. Quite a different story than you numbers, even though you have RUN them, but very close to the numbers I have seen when I have RIDDEN on them.

A 71' Smith, "Houdini" repowered with C32 CAT's in 2014 burns 90 gph at 30 knots, 40 knot top end with up to date power, advertised "In The Bite" magazine, not too different from the Hatteras 60 GT. These are numbers I can verify in print, so I tend to give them some credence over hearsay.

The Cat Cay tuna (glory) days? Mainly 35/37/43/46 footers? Some gassers thrown in there as well? Does not even begin to change the 50 knot SF myth one bit.

It is a real technical design and construction challenge, not to mention the commitment from an owner and his resale position, and I would not be so quick to add any member to that club without any hard evidence. Otherwise it falls under "Lore". There is always a data sheet out there, be it from the builder/designer/engine distributor/engine maker/broker/boat test in a magazine or even a reference in a magazine article going back to the much missed Tournament Digest days, but I have not found it yet.

Even Renegade, the 80' Monterey, with 396 MTU's rated 3640 hp each and a with Radar gun could not break 49 knots, and the best reference I have seen in print for a Jim Smith was 55.7 mph still under 49 knots. Show me the money, show me the MONEY