Engine Concepts...

So how come there are no dry sump marine diesels?

Bob

Concepts

Bob,
I would think that the main reason is that every marine diesel produced, other than large ship engines, is converted from a generator, truck or machinery engine. The producer already has the oil pan casting or stamping and sees no need to offer anything else. It will also add to the cost slightly but with the pre-lube feature it might still be competitive. The concept for would be to offer it as an option. For all applications it will provide more space between the top of the engine and the salon or hatch floor and provide a lower center of gravity.

Most all of the diesel engines I deal with have nothing but gear driven pumps, both coolant and raw water. The only thing driven by a belt on them is the alternator and I see that as a good thing because if the voltage regulator is bad you can simply take the belt off and run off of the 240volt ac battery charger until you can get it fixed.

I take a different approach. KISS. Oil pans and a mechanical oil pump have been used for ages now and are reliable. A dry sump system has gains, lower oil pan height, lower mounting height, maybe more HP. But it also has more items to fail, hoses to and from the oil pump, a sump for the oil, etc etc......I think I'd rather have it the way it is.

Maybe the marine (and truck) business is too conservative, buy what supposed to be good, don’t look for better if not proven for years. This way, innovations take a veryyyyyyyy longggggg timeeee

Or, why fix something that isn't broken.

Questions

Where I come from these questions you are asking now are called "putting the cart before the horse".

With hindsight you may have been better off starting a thread asking what all of us engineers, captains, owners etc would look for in a completely newly designed engine.

Most of the answers would probably point to the engine you have designed and built however to come here and claim this and that for an engine that is basically a dream has gotten you to where you find yourself now.

I know that Marmot, Kiwi and myself are all qualified chief engineers with many years of experience on all kinds of engines and machinery and I would suggest that instead of being confrontational with them, or any other member, you should be listening, that's how I learned and I am sure the others did so as well.

Myself, I have 44 years as an engineer, senior position in a shipping company and a business owner from boat building, engine dealer and marine engineering (trucking, fish farms, marine stores being part of my "empire"), and to be honest I would not give you the time of day.

You mention the worlds largest Diesel engines have there crank shafts installed from the top, that is true but what most on here don't realize is the actual size of these engines. Let's just say one bearing cap out of the 13 mains weighs more than your crank shaft. Twelve cylinders, how do I know well I was the chief engineer during the build and first trip out of the worlds largest Diesel engine at that time.

I know Marmot has that kind of experience as well and both of us have gone from those size of engines to the "smaller" yacht engines. If you know those engines you will also know they, big ship engines, are years ahead of yacht engines.

I was a Gardner dealer years ago and before being sold to Perkins (I was also a Perkins dealer) they saw that they were loosing business to small, lighter, higher horse power engines and rushed to produce an aluminum engine. What a disaster. Like you say though materials have come a long way so yours may have a chance.

It is very rare to see Capt J & Marmot agreeing (it looks like a love fest) and it is even more rare for me to agree with both of them but I do, well some of what they say, lol.

Bolt on gear driven equipment is not new at the front end and the bolt on equipment to the transmission although a newer concept has been around for years as well.

I doubt if you could get a commercial boat, especially a ferry, to have your engine(s) installed unless the owner is desperate because most of them only have a single main engine and who would take a chance. A twin engine ferry would have a lot of liability issues.

Why don't you go after many smaller shareholders to put up the money for you to build your "final" design, test it thoroughly and then put it into a boat owned by those same shareholders. Get all the data that Marmot is asking about, show olderboater the durability of the engine and then call that same caterpillar representative back who obviously looked at your prototype and had no interest in it and show him the test rig data and the data from running it in a boat and then take him for a ride and show off.

Then license the design and sit back and get that monthly payment, you can start a thread on your newly purchased yacht forums web site (I am sure an offer of a few million would persuade Carl) and post what ever you like, any posts you disagree with you can just delete.

A few on here may remember a guy in town who I would describe as being between a genius and a paid up member of the funny farm. Fiberglass shafts and Propellors may give a hint of who I am talking about, his ideas were considered radical at the time and they did not work but who would have known if he had not at least tried so stick with your dreams but please stop being so confrontational and you may get some good ideas to incorporate into your planned new engine.

You may even get some offers of financial aid as I heard that Carl, NY Capt, Marmot, Olderboater, Kiwi, Capt J and a Swedish designer are all very rich and looking for investment opportunities.

Good luck.

Concepts

Great post. Thanks for the input. There is a patent for the Hybrid Cooling system on this engine. Parallel cooling instead of series cooling. Short cooling paths for more passes and the cylinders don't touch. The cylinders also have fins for additional cooling. In testing this approach I found it to cool better than anything I have seen. A very efficient after cooler also adds greatly to the cooling.

My chief consulting engineer offered an interesting twist. Eliminating the glycol coolant all together and cool the engine with engine oil. Many advantages with this approach.

l

Crowdfunding could be an option indeed, but than you have to make it way more sexy...

Concepts

Thanks for the suggestion. It is hard to make industrial manufacturing sexy. Believe me I have tried. The funding required is so large, it will most likely require an early PO and raise funding in phases.

Concepts

Yeah, I am still watching a tube TV. Really love to have a flat screen.

Concepts

karo1776,

Since you have engine testing experience, what can you tell me about the NATO 400 hour and the 1000 hour Navy test.

That bumps up the pressure to roughly 5 bar (~70psi).
Not impossible but certainly a problem if stuff happens. Like opening the hot cooling system. Instant boiling of all water in the system, filling the engine compartment with hot steam a few milliseconds later. After all the water to steam expansion rate is roughly 1700.

(Remember, demonstrating fat explosions outside is interesting. Doing the same in an enclosure is really scary.)

Perhaps not intentional on anyone's part but there is some level of implication that the major engine builders-car, truck, boat and other-are not researching and trying novel and new approaches every day. They just don't talk about it publicly. I will guarantee there are CAT employees who have read every page of Buck's website and watched the video and tossed around opinions. Probably reading this forum as well. Keeping up with their competitors. Tearing engines down that others have built. All engine builders have large research and development departments. They come up with a lot of small changes and a very few major ones. General Motors spends about $8 billion a year. Toyota about $10 billion. Rolls Royce Daimler Power Systems (MTU) spends just under $2 billion on research and development.

So let's not think for a moment these companies aren't coming up with hundreds of concepts and evaluating those presented to them constantly.

I agree, a boat is not the best place for this approach.

When talking micro bubbles of steam on a hot surface transferring heat to water/coolant they can also have the opposite effect, as a insulator. This phenomenon "steam film" as you referred to is called the Leidenfrost effect .

Concepts

I was thinking of maybe once the engine had been tweaked in the test cell and was ready for endurance testing, the NATO 400 hour might be the one to complete first. Are there other endurance and durability test you might recommend?

Concepts

Hope they are.