First day out! Comments and Questions.....

Yesterday, after this seemingly un-ending winter in the Northeast, it finally seemed like the worst is behind us and the owner of the company who services my boat agreed to commission the engines, genny, and heads, (he still cautions me about getting the fresh water systems up and running since it's not un-heard of to get a mid-April freeze) so I could get out on the water and start practicing. (Which btw, I discovered I need to do a LOT of.....A LOT!)

Anyway.......a couple observations and hopefully you guys can advise me a bit.....

When I bought the boat ('91 3807) back in October 2013, we had a survey done after an unsatisfactory sea-trial. After a lot of work, the boat ran great, with both engines (cummins 6bta 5.9 M2 diesels) topping out at 3100 RPMs on the boat's tachs and the GPS showing a speed of 25.9 knots at 3100 RPMS. At 2500 RPMs the boat cruised along at between 15-16 knots. This performance was repeated yesterday.

My concern is that the starboard engine was extremely difficult to start from it's long winter nap and smoked like a banshee when it did start. The port engine,which I am told was replaced, not rebuilt, less than 50 hours ago, started almost immediately with almost no smoke at all.

The smoke from the starboard engine cleared up after running for about 10 minutes and never came back yesterday. We started and stopped and rte-started the engines several times in the next few hours. (Installed brand new batteries too, as the ones in the boat were grossly undersized I was told. But I wanted to wait for Spring to replace them, which we did.) We ran out along the coast for about 3 hours, bringing it up to top speed for about 15-20 minutes after the engines were fully warmed up, then varying our speed up and down a lot as I practiced maneuvering the boat on the open water and then at the docks, where fortunately it's still early enough in the season there was no one in the audience to watch the show.

So, my first question is, was the smoke upon first start normal for the starboard engine, which has a total of about 1100 hours now? Again, once warm, it didn't smoke again, nor was hard to start, but I want to know what to expect next time when it's cold again.

Second, do the top end numbers sound right? Top speed of 25.9 knots at 3100 RPMs with those motors on my boat, with brand new but factory spec props and full fuel tanks and two passengers? (The sea was extremely calm and almost no wind to speak of at all. A GREAT first day out!)

Next topic and complete change of subject:

When the boat was winterized, both heads worked. The aft head toilet had to be rebuilt. (Both are OEM)

Now, the day head toilet flushed out the antifreeze in the line, but once all the antifreeze had been pumped out into and then out of the bowl, it just pulled air up, no sea-water. I pulled out the check valve and removed the little ball and nothing but a trickle of water cam out the front of that pipe and then that stopped. I tried flushing with my finger over the hole with the ball out and no water, just the sound of rushing air.

Should sea water have come rushing out of that line with the check valve out? If so, does that point to a blockage in that line or something else? I am trying to trouble shoot and repair things myself so I can save the $100 per hour labor charges for the things I absolutely CAN'T do.

My mechanic advises me to stop messing with the old toilets and replace them both with new fresh water units. (He would tap into the fresh water line and cap off the sea water feed.)

He tells me that chasing these old toilets is ridiculously non-cost-effective when I can have him install new fresh water units for about 1K each each. (Toilet cost is about $550, he's allowing 3-4 hours labor.)

Does that sound about right as to cost for a moderately good quality fresh water toilet installed to update sea water toilets? I'm sorry I can't provide exact model numbers, just round-about this for me if you can.)

He also tells me the fresh water toilets will not have the extremely offensive odor I don't know enough to expect from the toilets I currently have. That point alone I think may be enough to sell me but still.....we're talking about ANOTHER $2,000 to be spent on this 23 year old boat. I know boating is expensive,I get it. But I do want to control costs where I can. I don't want to and won't cut corners on safety items but this isn't a safety issue.

Thoughts?

Beau, thanks for the prompt reply and good wishes!

Yes, the sea cock is definitely opened. First thing we checked! I sure wish that had been the issue. I found in my owners manual the original instruction and installation manual for the toilets, and used the troubleshooting section without success. It mentioned having air in the line as one potential cause, but how much air would cause a complete failure to secure enough suction to bring up sea water? The line was filled with antifreeze from winterizing and the first couple test flushes pulled all that into the toilet, strong flow all around the back of the rim, and back out, then nothing but a hiss and a little occasional trickle of water from the rim.

dsharp, just to clarify for me, you are specifically referring to the FUEL system when you say the cause of the hard start could be a leak in the system, right? A leak between the tank and the filter, or after the filter the injectors, or wherever the fuel enters the engine? (Forgive my ignorance, I know very very little about the mechanical side of diesel engines, and boats in general, but I want to learn)

So........if the filters are clean (they are brand new), and in fact, a person who knows the boat well (for at least the last 10 years anyway) says "the starboard engine has always been harder to start than port", then there may be a leak in a line somewhere? How do I trace a leak like that? This many sound stupid so forgive me if it does, but I don't see any sign of leaking fuel anywhere on or around the engines. How do I track a leak down if there is one? How do I confirm there is one? Is there a pressure test of some kind or some other way to determine the presence of a leak?

I wish I could go to the boat right now and try this advice! In the meantime, what I did when I was trying to troubleshoot it....

1. Hit the button in short bursts as I did on the aft head to get that working after an initial hesitation, or what seemed like one, which worked on the aft but not this day head. Didn't work in short bursts or extended holds. (as long as 30 seconds)

2. Removed the ball/spring valve assembly....expected water to come flowing out of the hose but instead got a short dribble and then nothing. Tried short bursts of the button, then longer holds, to see if water would come flowing out where the ball and spring assembly had been removed, nothing. Held my finger over the hole to see if that would make a difference and repeated holds, nothing. Reinstalled ball/spring assembly, nothing.

3. Confirmed sea cock was open.....it absolutely is.

Should I still try what you suggested with closing the sea cock next time? How will that make a difference if no water is coming through the line? Hope I'm not coming across the wrong way....I'm just confused!

I'm going to give that a try tomorrow. Sounds like the same as having my finger covering the hole with the assembly out, which didn't work, but who knows? It's certainly worth a try! I really appreciate the advice! Even if I am going to ultimately update the toilets I want what I have to work in the meantime, even if it's only for a couple weeks, if that can happen.

Does everybody agree that switching over to fresh water heads makes a truly huge difference?

I guess I should have the RPM's tested with a calibrated tachometer to see how accurate my gauges are......I'm not sure how accurate the factory gauges were on 1991 Carvers. In the meantime, I won't push the engines past 2800 on those gauges.....I sure don't want to damage one of those diesels!!! In any event I guess I shouldn't be pushing the old girl too hard, right? Actually....how "old" is the old girl? Are 1100 hours a "lot" on these cummins diesels? I grew up hearing about the hundreds of thousands of hard miles put on Mercedes cars with diesels and of course the tractor-trailer trucks. I know it's a lot harder to push a boat through the water than to roll a wheel down the street, and I know how any particular engines were used and maintained prevent anyone from giving a blanket answer to my question. But if it helps, the boat was always docked in the Northeast so always had a short-use boating season, and up till 5 years ago was dry-docked every winter. During it's 1100 hours it went to Florida and back and visited the Carolinas, the Chesapeake, Baltimore and Virginia and Maryland, as well as up and down the Jersey coast. (That actually sounds like more than 1100 hours to me but what do I know?) I got a ton of paperwork with the boat from the original owner and even the fuel receipts were there, so I could see where he visited and when. Interestingly, even when the boat was less than a year old, there are receipts for parts I wouldn't have expected, like rebuild kits for the heads and lots of gaskets and O-rings and filters and hose clamps....odds and ends, kinda. I would have thought a brand new boat wouldn't have had much more than fuel receipts in it's maiden year....guess that really exposes me for the newbie I am!

I never got a good explanation from the owner (90-something when he signed over the title) as to why in 2007 he had to replace the port block. He said he threw a rod.....but couldn't explain WHY.

Anyway, after that incident he hardly used the boat at all, with less than 50 hours accumulating since.

The guy bought himself the boat as his retirement gift to himself and his wife, and like many retirees who buy and RV and travel for a while, that was his plan with the boat. And that was in fact what he did! But shortly after the port engine blew, his wife passed, and that for all intents and purposes ended his boating life. His daughter had a boat of her own (a 40 foot cruiser) and she took Dad out on that while the Carver sat, getting started every once in a while during the season, pulled and cleaned and zincs done (but returned to the water rather than dry docked as before) every year until 2 years ago.

That's when they put it up for sale. It took two long years to sell it, and I understand I was the only serious offer in that time.

I dread the day I have to try to sell it, although with all the many cosmetic and mechanical updates and upgrades we've done, I hope the sale may be a little bit easier! If I want a bigger or newer (or both) boat in a couple years, I sure hope someone will see mine as I did, (a great value with regards to "boat for the dollar") and in a far better light, so if I DO want to upgrade, there's a chance I CAN without getting my head handed to me! In the meantime, after taking my first 3 hour lesson the other day, I find myself HAPPY it isn't any bigger than it is! It didn't seem NEARLY as big looking at it from the dock as it did from the helm trying to back it into its slip, with less than 3 feet from the boats on either side of me and a very narrow channel between my row of boats and the ones in front of me!

Sorry for drifting all over the place in this post....I really got side-tracked! Hope my question is still visible somewhere! LOL!

Yes, BEAU, I have been blessed with the friendship of a very highly skilled captain who has offered to teach me all I need to learn to be able to fly solo at some point. The first lesson, which ran about three hours, was very intense, but showed me all I don't know and helped me understand what I need to learn. Now it's practice, practice, practice, and then practice some more.

He has said many of the same things I have read you highly experienced guys saying here, from everything regarding to safety to maneuvering skills.

I think I most appreciated his patience as I made some of the same mistakes over and over at first, especially when he had me facing aft with the trans shifters behind me and had me backing the boat up over and over to points he'd pick to get me used to steering the boat in reverse with just the props.

But that part of the lesson really paid off in spades when we got back to the marina and he had me assume that position to back into my slip. I didn't hesitate to know where the boat would go as I shifted in and out of gear, nudging the boat ever so slowly back between the piling to port and finger pier to starboard. Fortunately, although rear visibility is terrible with my aft cabin canvas, between what I learned about picking a "reference spot" as I backed in and how to pivot on the piling, AND the rear view camera I have installed that feeds video to my chartplotter, it wasn't a case of "bumper boats" and I DIDN'T take out my neighbors boars or MY swim platform as I so feared! (And I was really lucky to have almost ZERO wind on my first day!)

Having all the "how to" boating books I bought and am reading is great, and having all the great "how-to" boating sites to read on-line is great too....but there is NOTHING like having a highly professional captain standing beside you assuring you that you're doing ok and you're going to succeed, as he gently guides you along with instruction each time you seem to be getting a little too close for comfort to the next boat.

I'm really grateful for the help on the water, and really looking forward to when I can go it alone!

I look forward to MY "moment" of actually getting it!

I'm glad I brought a smile to your face.....you guys who have the patience and fortitude to deal with a newbie at the helm of a big investment and a big and strange and foreign vehicle to maneuver really have my respect!! It's amazing how the guy teaching me hasn't gone completely grey and then pulled out his remaining hair if he has students like me all the time! (not that I am that bad, but I am far from a "natural"!) Anyway...you DESERVE that smile and a great sense of satisfaction!

I went out again today and we spent and hour or so backing up the boat out in the back bay....first using just the transmissions to steer, then just the throttles. He wouldn't let me quit until I could drive the boat in reverse and keep it straight for about 300 yards. That took forever at the slow speeds we used but it was quite a training lesson! By the time we got back to the marina I wasn't nearly as nervous about backing up towards my slip and sneaking the old girl in. Did it without taking out the swim platform OR the next guys boat!

We still have a long way to go but thanks to professional training I am learning!

Any other newbies who might be reading this thread....a word of advice.....GET PROFESSIONAL HELP! It really DOES make all the difference!