More owners equals less desirable?

That's a car purchase question carried over. Now I'd still ask the owner history and be interested in the reasons behind the changes of ownership and if surveys were done. But surveys aside, a lot of owners could still mean the boat failed to meet the expectations of the owners and that is something that surveys won't capture.

I'll even humanize the boat and compare it to an employee. Lots of employers have run references, interviewed and hired. But then lots of employers have parted ways with it. Why did so many people buy and then decide to sell. Could it be the operating costs exceeded what they expected. Could it have just been a lot of coincidence.

I would have questions on nearly new boats as to why they hit the market so quickly. I know the broker may quickly say, "It's a sign of our economic times" but there's often something more. Did they trade up and if so did they stick with the same builder? Did they find it too small or too large for their intended use?

So a valid question to ask how many owners, just the answer to that doesn't tell you anything. It can lead to other questions though.

As late as yesterday i bought a boat from somebody that did not even know the brand or anything about the boats history. So I must say that it helps when there are just a few owners and when you can contact them to get information on service history and many more things a long time owner knows about.

You're right that one owner can be bad too. If I were the buyer I would be interested in more about the previous owners, length of time, usage, and reason for selling.

When we get ready to sell 10 or 15 years from now, our boats are going to be high hours compared to most, excellently maintained, never chartered, never used as lawnmowers. So it will be good and bad. I imagine the key element in valuing will be engines and gens service, rebuilds, etc. How long since, how long until. Logs and all service records will be available.

Thats as bad as a man who wanted to sell me a boat he'd won in a poker game.

If so many ask the question, maybe why you're not getting it is the question to ask. You make some pretty broad generalizations in your post. How do you know they want to hear "one owner?" Do all new owners update and keep moving? The more owners the better? Whew!

I think asking the number of owners is a very relevant question, also the length of ownership of each, why the owner sold, and what if anything did s/he buy next. Is each owner available for consult, reference?

Surveys and sea trials are a given. It's finding out what you can before spending the money on surveys... and all history is relevant. If you're prejudiced against one owner boats, please send them my way.

Many owners don't have a survey done. There are a lot of boats sold without them. Others do only patchwork repairs and never preventative maintenance. They also take shortcuts. Again, you're making some assumptions that may of may not be true.

Then last the best surveyed boat can be very unappealing in actual usage. Perhaps it surveys well and the trial goes well in calm conditions but it handles rougher seas very poorly or has no stability when at anchor in strong winds. There are many reasons for multiple owners. Some of those aren't an issue and it may be an excellent boat. But other's of those are serious and may be things only owners find out over time. I think multiple owners is a red flag until better understood. On the other hand so are many other things. In my way of thinking all flags are red until better understood.

I'd also look into how many of that exact same model are on the market. That can indicate other owners have had a problem as well.

Multiple owners in a short period of time would indicate to me a lack of knowledge about the boat or boats in general. It could also indicate a lack of funding. Both translate into poor maintenance. Sorry, but spending a few hundred thousand to me represents a long term investment. One owner for a long time represents someone who's taken the time to learn about his vessel. It should be a good indicator. The Hatt my boss got has had (2) owners over its 30 year life, the last for over 14 years. That can be a double-edged sword however if the owner is a DIY guy, but doesn't have the required skill. So this really comes down to just one more piece of information that will lead you towards checking certain things. In the end though it all comes down to what you find when checking the boat out and sea-trialing, and especially the survey.

I'm also unsure multiple surveys via multiple orders add up. Survey's seem to be focused on what broken and what's not and rarely have an opinion on how well a system is maintained.

I know there is obvious conflict with a service provider ( yard ) providing an opinion but at least you can get some real numbers. I just disappointingly dropped the contact after an in water survey showed no major issues and yard estimates by 2 independent yards topped $150k.

So funny that the insurance company relay on these guys for market value...

I think part of the problem relative to surveys is that the term "Survey" can have a hundred different meanings to different people. Only when one knows what work was done as part of the survey do you know it's true value. Any survey must have a clear understanding between surveyor and owner or prospective purchaser.

In surveying the hull, are you just determining whether it's sound or are you asking for a survey of seaworthiness? How much time is allowed for a sea trial? What is being surveyed and what testing done on the sea trial? Is ultra sonic testing being done? Are you asking for hull potential readings? What about the structural design? The bulkheads and stringers? Are you getting an opinion as to the engineering and design? What materials are being tested and how? What about stability and balance and ability to handle wind? Are moisture meters being used? What about paint condition and gel coat? Is the boat being hauled? Inspection for previous damage or repair? Then you are into the decks and the superstructure? This includes towers, arches, pulpits, davits.

As to the engine testing, does it include fuel and oil analysis? And the drive train, mounts, shafts, struts, props?

How are the fuel and water systems being tested? Tanks, lines, valves, pumps? What about exhaust systems and vents? What about the fire systems on board?

Does the testing of the plumbing systems include all deck drains and hoses? Are they surveying design or just how it's working? What about the emergency bilge pumps and systems?

Is the surveyor testing for redundancy in systems? Or just evaluating whether the existing systems are working?

Has the boat and/or it's systems been exposed to freeze? Is mold present? Is vibration being tested? What about sound, decibel levels from various positions at various speeds.

As to the electrical systems does that include opinion on design? What is the testing of the generators, of the charging systems, of the shore power and hook up?

Is the heating and air conditioning just being tested to see if it works or to see if it's adequate for that boat as well?

What is the testing of switches throughout or through hulls? How extensive is the electronics survey? Is the opinion just on whether the equipment works or does it also compare to current market standards? For instance, a system might work fine but be terribly outdated.

Is the surveyor going to provide an opinion as to the boat's usability for the buyer's stated purposes?

Are maintenance records reviewed. Even though things are currently working is the surveyor looking at usage and age to form an opinion on probable future costs?

What about safety? Are there adequate rails? High enough? Enough hand rails? Steps ok? Deck coatings? Galley?

Surveys are like any professional services. The deliverables must be clearly defined and agreed upon and documented.

We've gotten surveys on new boats and on a build have a surveyor engaged to be involved throughout the process. On the new boats we wanted two levels of information. First was just whether everything was working as designed to work, including ride and handling. They were stock boats but even so you can get one that has issues. These were the things that would impact us buying the boat or have to be remedied before final acceptance. But, second, as long as we were using a surveyor, we wanted the full benefit of their experience including things that perhaps functioned ok, but they would prefer something different. There were subjective, but they were "if I owned the boat I would consider changing this." People are shocked at getting surveys on new boats but I've read the litigation on boats where delivery should never have been accepted and the problems were serious. Above a certain size it's always good to require the build to meet certain standards or rating services. Either it passes or it has to be fixed first. I can site a boat that was promised to meet Veritas unlimited and did not and the builder never got it to that point. Finally the purchaser on his own dime got it brought up to those standards. Yes, the purchaser ended up winning a $6 million suit but the goal isn't winning legal battles, it's having a boat that meets the specifications.

All I'm saying is that I hear many times how a boat was surveyed but then such and such happened and they're angry at the surveyor. Sometimes it may be the surveyor didn't do what he was supposed to. But often it's something that was beyond the scope of his charge. Now some of the possible things may cost more than the benefit, but then that should be a conscious choice. I've reviewed survey orders that are one page long, have virtually no detail and do nothing more than protect the surveyor with a list of disclaimers. Ultimately it's what you're willing to pay for versus what risks you're willing to accept. Personally I would rather pay to avoid a mistake than pay for a mistake.

Your response makes sense if you have an unlimited budget but i think most people are nervous to depart with 3-5k or more to fully evaluate a $200 - $300k boat that you aren't sure you will buy. I think there needs to be someone w experience to put together the tale tell signs of what's likely to be issues. I'd like to tell the surveyor my expectations and a budget. If I got a $100k to spend on repairs, he should wrap up his inspection once the numbers add up to more than that.

I'm not saying one should do all the things listed, just one should make a conscious decision as to what is and isn't being done and have a clear understanding. Don't think the survey included more than it did. The discussion came from talking about boats with many owners and perhaps surveys and/or other boats with insurance surveys and how well that protects you in a purchase. Ultimately if I'm purchasing a $200-300,000 boat there is a level of satisfaction and expense I want the survey to protect me against. Meanwhile there are other things that I'm more than willing to assume the risk of. Hull, engine, and performance are the three areas I'd be most concerned about. I'm probably not willing to pay $2k extra to avoid the risk of thousand dollar expenses but I'm more than willing to pay $5k to avoid buying a boat with a structural problem or with engines that are likely to need replacing or a rebuild soon. I'm hoping the survey just tells me all is well. But if it doesn't then I'm glad I spent $5k instead of $200-300k.

And I like your approach of stopping when it exceeds your pain threshold.

Hi,

Such an individual actually exists.

They are often called Surveyors but don't be put off by the name.

Find one and do your due diligence on the chosen one, it won't take long to form an opinion good or bad.

Ditto on K1W1's and Olderboater's posts. It's what a surveyor should be doing: in depth assessing, evaluating, giving diagnosis, prognosis, etc. while explaining, teaching and giving opinions. There are quality surveyors with reasonable fees. Due diligence will help you find the right ones.