Is the big SF market dead?

Well, I think it will come back eventually. But I agree the economy, uncertainty about the future (major factor) and of course fuel prices are all making a huge impact. There are plenty of people (and companies) with tons of money that they're sitting on, but they're completely afraid of what the current administration is going to pass next that will directly effect their business and income and investment income, that are on hold. It's all perception and nobody feels comfortable with the uncertainty of the future, they're afraid to spend their money. If the Bush tax breaks on dividends expires that's going to effect everyone from middle class on up severely. Depending on what happens in November, the economy is either going to go completely into the toilet or rebound like crazy.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My owner would like to upgrade to a newer boat but with the current POTUS administration he is sitting tight. I think many many people are thinking along those same lines- and not just about boats.

The market is still very good to buyers....

However, there are still sellers holding on to aksing prices of a few years ago. Those boats are not moving and many have been on the market for a long time.

I recently moved up and took a bath on my old boat, but I made up for it on the new boat which i got for an awesome price.....So i feel that i am ahead of the game.

I didnot owe a cent on the old boat so it was easy for me to sell it for below what i thought it was worth.... I sold it for the maket value which was almost half of what it would have sold for a few years ago......That hurt....but thankfully i did not have a note on the boat.

Another big issues when moving up, if the old boat has a note on it for more that the market value.....

I wasn't to sure weather to pop this statement in the evolution thread or this one.

I wouldn't really say the market was dead... I think hibernation might be a better term, until everyone knows what's happening in the short and long terms. Plus I think the way the boats a designed.... purely for fishing, a potention buyer would have to modify them to much to suit other needs... I just brought one .

I think the market is also up against other design formulas more than ever at the moment. Those that can afford boats these days want more boxes ticked. Not just for fishing.

I was talking to a friend of mine that skippers a 100' M/Y, his planning a trip to the pacific islands and his boss just halved the trip... doesn't have the time. I think people are genuinely working to much to go for a fish.

I also think a true Battlewagon might be a rare breed, but a S/F can bring more to the table than fishing.

Last thought, maybe the size of the customer base is also decreasing, so smaller boats are required for less people (eg, 3 guests instead of 5), and shorter trips. Cheers


Far

I wanted to come back to this thread after having my first round of research.

First, is there any good indication that the market is recovering? FLIBS was quite a success from what I saw and heard.

Secondly, talking about evolution of SF, it's really hard for a newbie like me to believe that this North American style is so resilient to change. From what I've seen most of the interiors of smaller SF (Viking, Hatteras, Bertram included) is very tired and look pretty much the same as on 20-30 y.o. SFs. On bigger SF, over 60' the changes are more noticeable and they do look more comfy and family-friendly.

So, the question is why not have the best of both worlds, the MY that can be fihsable or SF that is comfortable and open like a MY?

Especially considering the Volvo IPS/Zeus pod drives, there is so much more space and fuel-efficiency options. There are a few pure MY, express cruisers and even cats that I wished I could convert a fish friendly boat. Any expert thoughts on this?

Every so often I check Yachtworld. I remove all the defaults so I can get close to the total number of their listings - ALL boats. About a year ago the number was over 120,000. Today just under 108,000. Conclusions: I don't know.

There does appear to be some recovery in the new construction order books. and many builders who were idle now have projects on their shop floors.

The "North American" style as you put it isn't resistant to change intentionally. There are only so many ways to rearrange interiors to create a new "look" when you are working with a very small amount of space to begin with. Compared to a motoryacht configuration, useable floor space is usually 1/2 as the bow is confined to a single deck level.

The pod drive systems, contrary to marketing literature, don't actually give you extra free space. The engines themselves are the same size and you also have an additional drive head that adds to machinery space requirements. To maintain good weight balance you can shift the engines further aft since you don't have a fixed driveline but to counter that you have to shift fuel (or other heavy items) forward. You may gain some interior space below the saloon floor but it's not like the engines magically disappeared and you have what used to be a whole engine room to play with.

There are many successful "fishyachts" that can both cruise in comfort and catch dinner while doing it but like everything boating related, it's a compromise of features and not ideal for either purpose.

I actually did compare a few similarly sized SF:

- Vikings' 42 FB with Zeus pods,
- Maritimo 440C FB with Volvo IPS
- Riviera 43 Open FB with Volvo IPS

The difference in comfort is amazing. Not sure about fishability of Riviera and Maritimo but for my family they would be perfect cruising and "fishing" boats. There are huge guest staterooms on Riviera and Maritimo having 2 berths sleeping 3-4 people and beautiful open salon with windshield vs just small double berth on Viking and clustrophobic salon with small window forward (already a progress). On top of that, the Viking sells at a almost $200,000 premium.

http://www.riviera.com.au/modelOverview.cfm?type=flybridge&prdID=39&subType=Open

http://www.***************/models/convertibles/440.aspx/Model-LayoutsPlans

http://www.****************/modelsNew/plans.asp?numIdVal=42C

I love the term "fishyachts". Any particular ones you can suggest/refer to in 40-50' size?

My 1984 Bertram 54 is positively comfortable and quite up to date. Teak is just rich and I love it. There are some critical comforts I have added like:
Raritan Toilet and Purasan system.
Bilge Fan System
Laundry replacing toilet 3
Already had Sub Zero shorties in the galley and granite.
Spectra Water Maker
Second Elect Subpanel to accommodate twin 50A/240V

I have been on an almost new Viking 50 and I wouldn't give up the size of my 54' Bertram for the much newer but smaller Viking.

Any boat needs the owner to look after her carefully ... Adding items she needs and repairing those that have stopped working.

It's going to be lots of money whether starting with an older classic or a newer boat by a trusted builder.

I like big boats though. A 63' or 70' would be ok for me.

Of course, to each its own. We are not talking only about the taste. I also like the looks and feel of 70-80' SFs. I just can't afford one at this time.

Moreover, I can't afford both a MY for my family and SF for myself.

I'm in the market for a good combination if it exist. So far, uit's been hard to find one.

The large SF market rocked at FLIBS, very healthy market right now - why change a good thing???

CaptCook, I'm more than happy to design you one and get it built.

On a more serious note, I feel your pain, at the moment the production boat builders are doing the better job of making the crossover between the two. But still haven't master it just yet. From what I can see with the Viking, and other US brands is there making the 'living' areas larger... more user friendly - so larger cabins down stairs and wider beams for the saloon, at the lose of a head sea performance. But still keeping the cockpit very 'fishing' orientated.

The Aus production brands are doing a better job in regards to making the boats overall more practical - check out the space of the Riv Flybridge compared to the Viking flybridge... that Viking has sweet F/A up there! Better finish on the Riv in regards to the S/S detail and teak decks - optioned out.

The US brands would be better in a decent sea than the Aus brands, as the ideal use of the Riv and Maritimo are manly calm water cruising - designed mainly for that use.

Custom builders would design/build you something, but would steer you away from many/all the B/S like portholes, cockpit folding windows, etc. As they would rather fill there sheds with either new builds or refit jobs, rather than warranty issue with your boat in a few years time. As a lot of those extra production boat features would costs time and money for a Custom builder to build a one off thing. BUT can be done.

Personally, I would buy a used Custom S/F, and modify the back cockpit into a more usable area. So when you rock up at a tournament with your Custom S/F - once a year with a bunch of friends that would do more damage to the weekend bar tab, then reeling in a big blue.... well at least you'll look the part on the water. Yeah I have them too .

Cheers

Far

I sent you a PM, but your need to empty out some messages as it won't accept new ones at the moment

It's empty.

Check your outbox. I think you're only allowed 75 messages of combined inbox or outbox.....

Yeah, 29 in Total.

Far

Are you guys after my new 58'... she's a weapon!

Far

I would also take a hard look at the 40' Cabo Flybridge zues. I would say it's the best riding/handling of the bunch (IPS/ZUES SF in that size range). The Viking is a good boat but I've heard numerous complaints about the length of time it takes to get on plane. However, they've been working on that. The Viking will no doubt be a better sea boat than the other 2. If you chose to go with one of the Australian boats, I'd go for the Maritimo over the Riviera. They just seem better thought out in function and ammenities. I've run the Riviera and it handled fairly good and was dry but it was only 2-4' seas.

CaprJ, thanks again. I also looked at Viking Open. It has a very nice layout with 2 staterooms. I may consider one with a tuna tower.

I was told that Cabo may still offer their 44 HTX with Flybridge.