Friends think my wife and I are crazy

This sounds like a used Navigator 53/56 to me, almost to a tee. These boats run up and down the West Coast (Mexico to Alaska) all the time and Panama would also be in their range. Any issues I have seen on used models are easy to bring up to current status.

Talk to the guys at CA Yacht Sales in Sand Diego to get a better picture, they will give you the straight scoop....CA Yacht Sales International - Navigator Yachts and Californian Yachts Dealer

Now addressing the $120K situation - even coastal passages, especially considering the regions from Panama to Alaska, require a certain level of seaworthiness AND reliability that you will NOT find in this size for a budget of $120K, not when you sit down and value your and your families well being along with your wanderlust. It just won't happen.

Are you really going to want to be in remote Alaskan/Pacific NW or Mexican waters on a $120K bargain blow-out used vessel that has been typically sitting dockside with no competent annual maintenance WITHOUT thoroughly renewing systems to ensure a safe and easy going passage with the family? I would not think so.

So you are looking at going through all the engines/gearboxes/generators, running gear, thru-hulls, replacing most every hose, ensuring all tanks are ready to go, getting a good list of spares, etc.. A new competent suite of electronics and definitely new safety gear (life rafts/epirbs) ground tackle, etc. Modernizing all your HVAC equipment (which are usually under spec'd out west) as well as heat for the northern climes. Your wife will probably want to redecorate and make it her own......

You will be talking about a purchase price in the area of $250K and a budget to get whatever you choose "up to snuff" for your vision of at least that much. So call it at least $500K to realistically put something underneath you that is capable of living up to this dream

Hope this helps:

https://www.google.com/#q=History+of+Jefferson+boats


Jefferson boats for sale - www.**************

The 120k is not for the boat. It was a figure derived from 10k per month in retirement income.

Sorry, my mistake, misread one of the earlier posts.........

Books

I would strongly encourage reading some books by others who have undertaken what you wish to. Right now reading "Leap of Faith" and they spend considerably less than you'll have available as they decide not to wait until retirement age. But the most useful part of that book may be how they got themselves to the point of being able to live on the boat. They set the goal and then they went through several phases, starting with getting out of debt, then saving, and then getting rid of stuff. It's not an immediate thing but sure some healthy living hints. They point out several who have over history offered opinions on debt and then today I saw an article about how debt has imprisoned us. My wife and I chose from the day we were married to never have any debt. We lived first in a rental house, then far less expensive house than others in our income range.

There are many other good books on making the switch. You're not the first to have the dream and so learn from others who have done so. I would say the vast majority of those who have decided to retire and live on a boat have less available income than you will. Those with higher incomes generally keep a house to go with their boat. Fitting what you want to do in a budget can happen, but still don't underestimate the costs. By reading you'll see some of the examples of surprise costs others have encountered. Also, you will see a rather universal statement and that is to do it sooner rather than later. Work toward the goal harder and then as soon as it's possible, do it. Get more years in while you have fewer health challenges. Now in reading you'll see very little of the other side, those who tried it and gave it up after six months or a year, simply because they don't write books about it. Still learn from those who have made it work. Some of the best reading is as people endure mechanical issues or unexpected weather challenges or any number of other problems, but then sit at anchor at the end of the day watching the sunset and listening to nature while sipping a drink and think to themselves how wonderful their life really is.

Jefferson yachts

Please forgive my ignorance but I still connot figure out very much about jefferson yachts. The only thing I found is a Kenntucky Yacht Service.

- who is the designer and naval architect of this yachts ?

- who actually builts them and where ?

- are they still in production ?

- What building method is used ? GRP, metal, wood ?

- in what numbers are the built ?

Many thanks in advance.

Taiwan


Jefferson Yachts Models.mov - YouTube


https://plus.ibinews.com/article/2ntRgsyMV2/2012/02/06/jefferson_yachts_shuts_doors/

Jefferson yachts

Then it is the same setup like on the Defever yachts ? This does not mean, both Defever and Jefferson are bad quality boats.

If those boats are built in Taiwan with some organisation and sales people in the states, my points from above for a new build apply. Make sure you have a very trustworthy representative in the yard in Taiwan and some kind of company structure in your country, you can step on, if something goes wrong. When the product is glued together, its hard to tell, whats under the skin.

The worst thing which can happen to you, is just a local agent which is negotiating the deal, taking his profit and nobody there which is in reach of your laws.

I say again, buy American or buy on the used market with a comprehensive survey of somebody you trust.

Well, the first thing essential to any major expenditure is trust. But the second is staying on top of things. When I was in manufacturing we contracted a lot of work to others around the world. However, we were very diligent in building those relationships and we always kept someone on site. If one is going to build a $20 million yacht then I don't care where it's built, I'd want to have someone visiting the facility on a regular basis. Things can change rapidly. New orders hit. Or boats get cancelled. Something isn't exactly right but they proceed anyway. It's just the way I did business and the way I'd do a boat build. The other thing is I got surveys done on two new boats and would do so on a new boat. Yes, it's extra money, but a small price to pay for the reassurance. I know of cases of brand new boats where contracts required survey to Veritas or another standard and the boat as supposed ready for delivery would not pass the requirements.

As to buying American, I think that's a personal choice. But I'm going to keep someone checking wherever it is. We have two Italian boats that I don't know of an American equivalent. We are starting negotiations on two American boats because they satisfy our needs better than others. However, if we were looking for a 180' steel hulled long distance yacht then it wouldn't be American. And if we were looking for a trawler it wouldn't be either. We'd look for the one that we were most confident would be quality and meet our specific needs.

There are many manufacturers who may be headquartered in the US or elsewhere but have had long standing relationships, some exclusive others not, with Chinese factories. Some of those have an excellent reputation for quality at a reasonable price plus the boat company stands behind the product. Others have poorer reputations and getting issues addressed have been problematic. Also, know the boatyard too. There are cases where companies have great reputations but it's based on a specific boatyard that might not be where they are building your model and might not have the same quality.

Quite honestly in doing a tremendous amount of study and research, we've been impressed with the industry overall. The vast majority of builders do a good job if matched to your needs. Far better than we found with smaller boats on lakes where there were a few brands that were really awful construction. It seems most of the boat builders are from good to better to best but not many that deserve to be called bad. Now you may say the boats of one don't take rough water well, but that might not be their primary intent. It's really a pretty impressive industry. You look closely and find a few lawsuits and major issues but compared to other industries I give the yacht or larger boat industry high marks. Sure better than I'd give office equipment or computer manufacturers or even large equipment manufacturers. In boat owners I've not found many at all who tell you they absolutely dislike their boat and would recommend you never buy that brand. Now I have found many who wanted to sell theirs because something else would match their needs better. The biggest single reason I've seen is wanting something larger but there are some wanting to downsize. Sounds a lot like houses doesn't it?

As to used, you do know more of what you're getting. But not completely. No survey tells all and they are only partial predictors of what is to come. You're still getting used and everything on it still has some wear. That said, from a financial standpoint it probably never makes sense to buy new. Same thing with cars. However, buying boats is not based on primary financial motivation, just as a secondary concern. We buy because we want. We want for many reasons. Now, personally, we want new. But we do so fully knowing that a decision based on the financial equation would have said used.

The older Jeffersons, like mine, were made in Taiwain, although I heard that the newer ones are made in the other China. Kentucky Yacht is a major dealer and good folks to work with. My recollection is that Jefferson had a program that involved store-financing with a dealership so a lot of places were, at one time or another, a Jefferson dealer. The story that I heard on my '85 model was that the hulls were laid in the US and then shipped to Taiwain where the interior woodwork was done. It was beautiful woodwork. Mine had CATS.

One of life's little challenges.

If only I had some support.

https://plus.ibinews.com/article/2ntRgsyMV2/2012/02/06/jefferson_yachts_shuts_doors/

Some general things to consider. When a company is in serious financial trouble they may pass some items on through they wouldn't otherwise. That's why I consider the financial situation of a builder very important. As it applies here I'd be very careful with some of the last Jefferson's, 2005 models. Specifically, the largest secured creditor of Jefferson at the time of the bankruptcy was the purchaser of an 82 extended bridge model who had won a judgment. He had alleged the boat was presented to him as sea worthy and it was not as it was too top heavy and too tender. He even presented evidence attesting to that and attesting that a constant 37.5 mph wind could be enough to topple it. Now there were arguments about putting larger stabilizers. Also, during construction there were reports of concern on both stability and the total weight versus the weight the hull was designed for. Jefferson said it was typical to have issues during construction and that was not the completed boat which got much more ballast from items added later. The owner of Jefferson even had taken the specific boat in question from South Florida to Mobile through rough gulf weather. I don't know any more than the public record on this but I do advise that it's human nature when you're barely afloat that you can't reject a boat under construction knowing that would shut you down.

On the delivery of the boat, the captains (who were recommended by Jefferson) reported serious concerns about the stability and sea worthiness.

Jefferson is not the only manufacturer to cut corners in the toughest economic times. I know of three other manufacturers to have similar issues. All the more reason to choose carefully, have your own people involved and on site, and get a survey even on a new boat.

Someone on site would have seen how unstable the boat was in tests and they wouldn't have had to wait for a court case to obtain the test reports.

And to my knowledge this was not reflective of earlier Jefferson production.

Taiwan built yachts

I do not want to give the impression, boatbuilders in Taiwan or somewhere else in Asia are bad boatbuilders. The craftmanship of their (skilled) workers is mostly good if not even remarkable.

I am doing business with Yards in Taiwan, South Korea and in the PR of China for more than 30 years now. I have learned to understand them, how they think and believe and how they do business and last but not least and most important, how they think about us.

We have had vessels built down there in the past and we will continue to build vessels there, because we must, not because we like them. A typical (standard) cargo vessel will cost a bit more than half of the price of a northern European or a US yard. This, because they are heavily subsidized by their governments and because and most of all due to their much lower pay rates. But they are not very flexible. They can build standard ships, thats it. If you would try to build something like Topaz or Azzam or even cruise ships like Disney Dream in Asia, you would end in a disaster.

That is the reason, why our yards are either out of business or have to specialize in building only highly complicated special one offs and / or doing refit and repair (or building cruise ships and Megayachts).

After having paid big penalties because of bad quality and vessels not up to spec, we developed a system of constant supervision and quality control done by company own surveyors permanently present in the yard during the whole building process. Then things came up to speed. For example, in the beginning, we caught them, fooling us. When we forced them to correct these items, they changed the items back to original status, when our surveyor had left the yard. Thats why I said, if things are covered up, they are difficult to detect.

I am sure, the PAE guys from Dana Point (Nordhavn) have gone through the same process. Because of their perfect company setup of control and supervision plus keeping all paperwork in the headquarter, they are able to deliver very high quality boats for reasonable prices. The Drettmann Company in Germany did the same great job on the Bandido and Elegance yachts with Horizon Yachts and Jade Yachts.

If you come to Taiwan especially to the Town / District of Kaohsiung on the southwest coast of Taiwan, you will find dozens or even hundreds of yards of different size on a single road along the coastline. They are concisting of one or more open or partially open sheds, where armies of little workers are welding, glueing or assembling boats, yachts and ships. Most of these yards would not reach European or US standards of constant quality, enviromental control and safety and fair payment for their workforce. But they build pretty good ships, if you stand behind them and watch closely.

Having said all that, I do not wonder that companies like Tollycraft or Jefferson went out of business. Without a company structure in the back, like PAE (and they had a hard time too), you have no chance to survive a recession. If only one bigger project fails, like it happend to Jefferson yachts, you are done or you leave some very unhappy customers behind.

The reason I am saying all this, is my believe, that the OP, as a newbie, has no chance whatsoever, to complete a newbuild project in Taiwan or somewhere else in Asia successfully on his own. And Taiwan is the best country of all. The PR of China or South Korea are much worse.

You should through Hatteras into the mix. Their cockpitted MYs and Yachtfisher style boats fit your specs, with the bonus, unlike Jefferson and Tollycraft they are still in business and there is still good support from the factory and affiliated businesses. And the quality is a step up the ladder, though the Tollys come close. Actually sounds like the "perfect" boat for your current thinking would be an old but well refurbished and maintained Hatteras 58 LRC, there are some good ones out there.

By the way have you investigated the availability of live aboard dockage where you plan to live? Very difficult to come across in many metro areas, especially as the boat gets bigger, slips of any kind become rarer.

One of the best truisms in boating, especially for full time cruisers, is "don't buy the biggest boat you can afford, buy the smallest boat you can be comfortable on". Very personal choice that, and it would be worth your while to charter some different boats to help determine that (and if the boating life is really for you and yours).. if you get good skippers who can teach you, this chartering will be the best money you ever spend on boating. Plus you get to check out some potential future cruising grounds.

Do not underestimate, as others have noted, the total cost of ownership for a boat this size. Of course, it is highly dependent on what condition the boat is in when you buy it, and what your standards are. Not knowing what those are, it is useless to estimate "blind" a monthly maintenance budget. You do need to have a reserve fund for when something big happens, like an engine destructing, something in the 50k or so range is good, but the more the better.

My wife and I did what you are contemplating, only more cruising intensive, for 6 years on a Hatteras 56MY. The original plan was to do it for 2, but we enjoyed it even more than we dreamed we would. So I am in the "go for it" camp, with the strong caveat that there is no substitue for extensive on-the-water experience which we got via chartering for many years and taking lessons.