Looking to buy a 120+ foot Yacht

Geees! and for years I believed all them big boats where from Georgetown,SC

Curious - as I hope to also one day purchase a 120-180' bargain yacht for 100% business and 100% pleasure - what information proffered here has been helpful? What will aid you in your hunt?

I'm not a moderator so I'm speaking out of school, but I think if a broker contacted you because of a post on YF, that broker would be banned for life if not executed by deletion.

Brokers are on this site to contribute information to help yacht owners. I know Carl directs buyers and makes appropriate suggestions by private email, but YF is not a multiple listing service, although sounds like a great idea to me

Judy
a non-solicitous yacht broker

Put another way, the professional brokers you would want to deal with, those who follow rules, would not contact you. However, any lurking here to circumvent rules and sleazily contact you, might do so or surreptitiously do so by pretending to refer you to someone they "know."

May I ask what kind of helicopter you have?

Don't forget it also needs to be ostentatious:

...while at the same time be a second hand bargain:

Does anyone REALLY believe this guy is shopping on an anonymous web forum to buy a 180' yacht? Seriously, some common sense needs to be applied: who would realistically do what he says he's doing?

Actually, a LOT of people. Screen names grant anonymity; essential to keeping shareholders or media out of personal pursuits. There have been MANY threads by buyers over the years, however a good number of buyers have never made a post on YF. Typically they use the Private Message system. Can't count the number of emails I've had from buyers over the years looking for opinions and guidance.

Although I was the first to present doubt, we all need to respect the reasons why buyers choose to be vague or evasive. After all, the net can be a treacherous place.

If you don't believe, can just ignore. But isn't it easier just to give the benefit of the doubt and show respect. Better to err on the side of assistance and someone else if not the OP might learn.

I know we came here with questions. I hope not as far out there as his and no helicopter, but because of the anonymity. Now we weren't seeking to buy anything here but rather to get advice and I'd advise him that's the best use of this forum. Then find other places to go buy. Or use some of the sponsors here (I should get a gold star for that, Carl).

We ask questions of all those we meet and seek advice. But we choose not to talk to those who sell until we've done our research. We don't hit a car lot until we know what we want to buy. Don't talk to boat manufacturers or brokers till far down the path. We like to maintain the control of the situation plus don't want a dozen vultures descending on us daily. Part of the beauty here is no one is selling. The brokers here respect that.

So, I'd advise the OP to perhaps rephrase not seeking to buy here but seeking advice here. Then he can go into the market better informed to make an intelligent buying decision.

For us, we had good advice from other places, but where else could we come and get so much input from so many with so little work. It was actually enjoyable too seeing all the different views. We listened carefully even to those we didn't ultimately agree with. We sorted through the personal bias and prejudices (nothing wrong with prejudices based on personal experience) and weighed it all.

Again, I have no idea about the legitimacy of the OP but it's not important I do. I just answer as if legitimate and nothing is harmed either way. I do see many reasons he'd come here. He's got the idea of something he wants to do and isn't really knowledgeable enough to do it. He might have tried to bypass some steps.

We choose to remain rather anonymous for now, ourselves. We will until at least the time we've actually got signed contracts on the boats we're purchasing and then for personal reasons we'll still remain somewhat anonymous, giving that up only in private messages, phone calls and face to face meetings. You will never see our names and information published anywhere on the internet. We've been in a situation previously where we couldn't maintain privacy over some things. We didn't like personal things going public but state law required it. We had to use security to keep the press away as if they have some inalienable right to force us to talk to them. We now own a number of small businesses but we remain totally anonymous letting our COO, CFO and others be the public faces.

In private we're very open people. I once wasn't but Belle cured that. But on the internet is just not the place we choose to be so. No facebook, no twitter. Chat rooms anonymously.

Well cannot sleep again too early to get up but need rest but too not sleepy now... so checking out YF.

A couple comments... many owners or those who people call or think are or call an owner are not... same for buyers. If people know you are the owner it can be a problem... and if you are an owner it can be a problem... but it you aren't you have less problems.

Well if that is cryptic let me explain. The last thing on earth one wants to "own" is a yacht particularly a large yacht. There are immense liabilities to ownership... not just risks but taxes and other practical matters. In some counties if you live in the country for more than a couple days less actually than halve a year you are a resident. In many or most countries being a resident defines various legal and tax limitations on you.

In the USA or for a USA citizen you owe personal tax on what you make personally wherever you live as a resident or not of the USA... unless there is a tax cooperation treaty and you have elected to pay the other country's tax rather than US tax. Stupid people who are US citizens live in a non-tax cooperation treaty country as residents... so pay both. Now the USA has some tax benefits if you live outside the USA and make income there. But you must be careful...

Now back to the living outside the USA as a resident... even if you have elected in a tax cooperation treaty country... USA taxes you can owe unexpected taxes over personal income tax. And, you could have your inheritance issue decided by statute of that country no matter what your will is. Also there are things like asset taxes on worldwide holdings you personally own that are tied to your residency... these are annual percentages they can not be cheap... in twenty years you could be broke... !

As to yacht ownership... if you personally own a yacht you owe USA sales and excise tax on it... if it and you reside in the US or if it visits and if you are not careful... you personally own it you is stuck. You could be paying import duty on your boat. In other places like Europe you personally own a yacht you can be hit with a rather high VAT tax once but loose the papers and they don't allow copies to be produced you get to pay again... go around the world for more than a couple years... out of territorial waters... you pay the VAT again... until you have had the tax authority come on board and investigate and threaten confiscation you have not lived... and maybe the wife does not much understand why "YOU haven't paid YOUR taxes on YOUR BOAT" and all such arguments involve... its like a shakedown and if the yacht is worth (according the the authorities more than you paid) whatever... it costs a lot of money... you might be paying a fifth more of that value or loss it... and all kinds of other little hits including that nasty annual asset tax. France did a rather large emergency increase on that when Holland came in... p.s. the 75% income tax was set aside by review as to basic legality. Well you personally own and operate the thing you pay taxes on fuel and basically everything that you use. This is the tip of the iceberg... do you really want to pay all the costs out of your personal pocket.

So only the terminally stupid personnally own a yacht. You ask why there are few US flagged or French Flagged or British Flagged yachts and why they are always flagged in some tax haven or small unaffiliated country in the middle of the Pacific or something... THAT is part of not being stupid. Now controlling a yacht is a different matter without the problems of ownership.

I have to give the late Malcolm Forbes credit his last yacht he paid full boat... said he wanted to just do it straight up... of course it was his last yacht and he was in his final years... and the kids had enough... and it was only money at that point... and you cannot take it with you. I always really admired him... always the best service on board his yachts and it was a fine gentleman and always attendant of his guests... but more than all that in WW2 he enlisted and served in the US Army as a combat soldier as ultimately working up to be a Sargent when he could have been an Officer... you know what he said about it... 'I was proud to serve my country but I am not a professional soldier and therefore have no business being an Officer'.

Karo, I have never heard of a vessel being made to pay vat again a second time unless the vat was claimed back when it left the EU.

Do you know of a case where the vessel was fully paid up, went cruising and was hit again on return.?

A couple of comments. First, unlike most countries, the tax and legal entity situations vary widely by state. Florida has limited the sales or use tax on a boat to $18,000. Florida has no personal property tax on a boat. As to import duty, yes, unless you purchase a US built boat. Similarly, income taxes vary widely by state. Florida has no personal income tax. California goes up to 13.3%.

The advantage to a person who is not putting his boat up for charter in flagging it off shore instead of Florida is now rather small. But a large percentage of yachts are chartered and there many advantages come into play in flagging elsewhere.

As to who owns the boat, it's not just boats. Look at houses along the ICW in Fort Lauderdale. We're talking about yachts $10 million and $20 million and up. Well, the homes in that range are either owned by LLC's or by Trusts. It's simply a matter of trying to limit liability. That's true wherever it's flagged, however.

K1W1.... I suppose it is rare but look up the rules... it seems to me it was it has not been in the EU for longer than 24 months would have to look up myself... but arrangements can be made previously so the paid status is not lost as I remember in the case of a long cruise. But without careful attentive management you could be caught. I don't know of a particular case but with budget pressures on governments now-a-days I am sure it will come up. The one that worries me more is losing the papers... which if I was doing the record keeping would surely happen being a visual organizer.

A comment is if you have the choice and are buying a used boat... I would get the VAT paid status if you are EU based or spend a lot of time there... even if you run it as a charter operation or commercial exemption.

Which brings up a interesting point. if you don't own the boat and operate under a commercial exemption... when you personally use the boat you should pay charter... the key is personal use and its definition. Another comment is to have either your own management company or a hired reputable management company manage it and don't rely on the Captain for that... he has enough responsibility with operating and managing the day to day... and the booking keeping and business end are usually not sailors interests.

I have long thought a thread would be nice on ownership... management... control... interests... preplanning and buying as to the business or legal economic aspects of yachts... . The key is preplanning and professional advice before you jump in. I have not gone to a yacht show for now at least 25 years... hate the whole broker and buy and sell aspects...

Brokers cannot usually be trusted for the professional and legal advice... they are not fiduciaries and you need to know the advice is in your interest. A comment on that whatever advice or management you hire... ask for a fiduciary agreement to be signed!

I am unfamiliar with Florida's particular situation... .

I registered to these forums because an old client of mine asked to help him buy a boat in more or less this topic's range. Wasn't a boater by a mile (meh still not as much as I'd like...), and that was quite a while.
Not saying it's a sure thing, but entirely plausible.

This is the reason I think this guy posted either for kicks or with a wild fantasy of scamming someone.

But did you start a new thread to say "Looking for a 120’ yacht, no time wasters please."?

I'd expect someone prepared to spend tens of millions to either employ experts for advice, or be extremely knowledgeable himself, not post on a forum where he has no idea who's behind the keyboards at the other end. Not that there aren't experts here, just that he has no way of knowing who is and who isn't.

I think whether the man is really a buyer (now or later or never) or posting for entertainment does not really matter. It is irrelevant and rather disrespectful to him and the forum to jump to conclusions and make comment about a real buyer using the forum or not.

As I have posted herein about representatives such as brokers and managers and other hired helpers: do they have your best interests in heart? Even if you obtain fiduciary agreements wherein they put you interests above theirs how can you know? Even attorneys do not always look out for your best interests but try to control you to what they think is best for you... or perhaps for the firms bank accounts.

It is not unreasonable that someone looking to buy would post about it here. It is smart. Why is most would not know or care who he was and therefore he could obtain someone else's opinions without the problems of greed, control or personal prejudice personal relationships might bring with brokers, advisors and the like.

Certainly on the forums it is like going down to the marina bar and chatting up strangers about boats. But that is exactly the kind of thing that in my experience provides information you may not get elsewhere... even the best professional helpers in the world cannot or would not provide what the scuttlebutt of the general community will provide. For example.... yacht crews get to know each other and a wide range of friends on other boats... heavens some have lifetimes of experience on many boats. One can get information that no broker or manager would admit too.

I have learned a lot on these forums.

And, importantly they provide an outlet for ideas and information. Though in my case its usually me discussing one on my inventive hair brained constructive or engineering solutions... get shot down because they are lets say too fanciful. This has saved me embarrassment of wasting some poor builder or designer wasting his time listening to them... then deflating my idea down to size... and me going away dropping the whole matter...

I can propose them here and get the flak for free... excluding real embarrassment. And, as an outlet it always the time for one to think things over will much less bother.

Now as to help to buyers...
I said to myself when certain sailing yacht was built "If that ever comes on the market I am buying it no matter what!" Well it did come on the market... and the first place I went was here. I promptly found an answer to the listing price without having to call up someone and suffer the hassles involved in that... or asking someone to ask around and tip my hand. Or, travel to some boat show somewhere that I really did not want to go to anyway to see it without expressing real interest... not that I go to boat shows anyway. Well with a little help here and there... I found the price was higher than I could do... not that it might actually be justified. Also, I was able to in reading over the forum and looking at unrelated posts about technical complication set myself down and come to the conclusion it maybe wasn't really for me anyway... and then thinking on crew issues... etc! This along with other internet information it deflated my rather intense interest into passing fancy.

Recently, a member posted on his engine problems on his recently acquired boat... and difficulty finding service in his area for that brand. I think he was new to the forum but found out that being a member it would have caused him to reconsider the boat in the first place because of the service issues he is now getting to experience at the cost of much money and trouble.

So the forum can be real helpful.

That may be true on some forums, but not at YF. There's no BS here. No brainless banter. If someone posts garbage, they get taken out with the trash. Nowadays, most people use the net to research buying decisions. Forums have become the go-to place for user opinions, experience and advice. It makes no difference what the price tag is.

I'm in no way suggesting YF doesn't collectively posses a huge wealth of knowledge and expertise.

If the OP had asked for advice I may have thought very differently about him.
But he didn't ask for advice, he asked for brokers and sellers in a place where everyone is unknown to him - very suspicious IMHO.

Anyway, the point seems to be moot, as he's apparently not posting in this thread anymore.

The point you made about using all resources is so important, Karo. Here you get varied opinions as you'd expect. You get a combination of all the experience and prejudices of members. And that's good. You don't make these type decisions based on the opinion of one person, whether broker or captain or forum member or friend. Also, you use search functions and find information provided to others. So information provided in a thread like this one is valuable to others who may come here. You used the word "scuttlebutt" and in a good context. I even found great value in the scuttlebutt you could get in the small restaurants located at some of the shipyards and frequented by captains and engineers and occasionally yacht owners.

Then people just sort through it all. I will say the responses I received here were invaluable, including the advice I followed and that I didn't follow as I sorted through it all to figure out what was right for me. It wasn't that I didn't have other advisors, but when you are making decisions like this, more is better. In business I didn't just decisions people made as much as I did the process. If they collected all the information and made an informed decision then I considered that good. And I consider to yacht purchasers, collecting opinions and information here at YF to be an essential part of a good decision. I would expect people here to have tremendously varied recommendations. If everyone felt the same then why would we need to many boat builders.

I am always very suspicious when people ask for precisely what they don't have (like contacts in out example). I mean, really. Who would ask for contacts somewhere he has none?