Fleming or Marlow Yachts?

Congratulations and safe and happy boating.

If you need a delivery/instructional Captain, let me know. I might be available in June. My owners have decided to sell their 72' Marlow.

Glad to hear everything out for you and the Wife Lurch.
Here's to many days of cruising and enjoying your new boat.
I've been on a few of the 53's and agree, they are a nice boat.
It will behave like a different boat once the fins are on.

Hi Lurch,

Congratulations on the purchase, and thanks for sharing those details. Sounds like you found the right boat for you. I have walked over a couple of Marlow's, and was greatly impressed by some of the details, and the thought that has gone into making the boat as comfortable and practical for cruising use as they could. I like the Twin keels they have. Also thought the Marlow engine rooms were very well laid out, and it seems they also keep adding incremental improvements on each new one built. I hope to get out on a Fleming soon and will have my own comparison.

Thanks again.

Marlow charter?

Great info on this thread. I am in the market for a Marlow 57, 58 or 61 after years of narrowing our choices down. Were at FLIBs this year to decide between Fleming and Marlow and are going with Marlow for the main reasons stated in this thread ( head room, full beam master and speed if needed). That said, my wife and I have been avid charterers for years and have bareboated all sizes of Krogens and Grand Banks. We know where to charter a Fleming and will probably do so to make a final, FINAL decision ... But we are struggling to find a Marlow to charter. We would be happy to pay an existing owner and find a suitable captain if needed but there seem to be none available. There was Casamere on the East coast and I think there may be one in Tahiti but a charter broker told me Casamere was out of service.

We are just struggling to take the plunge without spending 4-6 nights on a Marlow sized no more than the mid seventies. Anyone know an owner willing to do a One-off charter in the U.S. Or Caribbean?

Many thanks

I'd look up all the lawsuits past and present against Marlow before taking the leap.

Have a word with Piers, he's owned a Fleming 55 for quite a while now and wouldn't look at another maker for this sort of yacht. He's a very funny guy to talk to too.

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/members/piers.html

The first larger boats we fell in love with when we knew we were moving to the ocean were Marlow. Love the 57 and 61 for ICW and inland. Love the design of the 97. Have still seen nothing in that size range that we like better when dealing with it in theory and what it's said to do.

However, we had to back away when we saw a few other factors. The Kakawi litigation scared us. We read the full documents. The fact that all three 97's had quickly hit the used market also told us something about that particular model.

That said, if we were in the market for a used 50-65' boat, we'd strongly consider Marlow. We'd get a good survey and if it checked out and we liked the way the boat rode and handled, we'd do it. Design wise, we haven't found anything in that range we like better including the boat we're probably going to order.

Now here is when I for once agree with all those who say buy used as opposed to myself, who only buys new. With a used one you get a chance to get it thoroughly surveyed before purchase. The litigation issues of new buyers don't apply. Any issues around initial delivery of a new one or warranty service don't apply. You can know what you're getting up front. The 57E and 61E are still our favorite layouts of all boats in that size range, if our stated use is ICW, near Coastal, and Rivers and inland.

When researching I do a lot of non-traditional things. One is look for recent models hitting the used boat market. A positive for Fleming is you see very few. So it sure appears their purchasers are keeping the boat. That seems to support all your read in other places of how Fleming owners feel about their boats. Because I'm not looking at Fleming, I've never actually talked to an owner but sure seem to have satisfied owners.

Thanks for all the advice, gang. I feel the same way about used boats having been broken in. One clarification on your comments. You recommend the 50-60 Marlows for ICW and coastal. Does this mean you would not recommend down island runs from Florida to PR and the Virgins as well as points south?

Thanks

The link returned:

Then, again, perhaps, I finally made the blacklist.

Piers runs his own website for the boat. He and Lin are hoping to do the Baltic Sea next year I think.

Play d'eau Fleming 55 owned by Piers and Lin du Pré

Oh, that's going to get you a lot of contradictory answers, I expect. Some with far more experience than me will hopefully offer answers. However, ultimately, you will have to make your own judgments and much depends on captain as opposed to boat. I can say that if you're inexperienced and driving it yourself, then my answer would be absolutely no.

Answers you'll probably hear:

Some would be opposed to making such trips in anything short of a steel hull displacement vessel.

The other extreme will tell you, sure, no problem. Boat much smaller and less capable do it all the time.

The middle ground is that an experienced captain being cautious and doing it in good conditions is probably fine but choosing that captain and being careful to find the right weather window are crucial.

I personally would not do it in any boat without an experienced captain with my current level of experience. I would not select the boats in question if this was my primary intended use of them. On the other hand if my primary use was near coastal and inland, but I had an experienced captain and wanted to take the occasional island run, then I'd do so.

Tony's 65' Fleming, "Venture" has been doing lots of well documented blue water work during the past 4 years. Has any Marlow in a similar size range done the same type of trips, putting their money and reputation up front? How about offshore duty certifications and ratings when comparing the two?

The fact that Mr. Marlow has allowed the situation regarding the 97 foot yachts to reach the stage of litigation, leaving unhappy owners/clients is the big concern. It is not a case where you can feel comforted that this has not happened with the 57' or other models.
Problems occur and mistakes will always be made, it is how those issues are addressed that makes the difference between a Fleming and a Marlow.

No, none of them have the history of Tony and his Venture. In addition when it comes to the certifications, one of the issues involved in the Kakawi episode was a matter of the Veritas unlimited certification that it was supposed to have.

Also, one of the things Marlow is very proud of is the lighter weight. In rough water that's certainly not an advantage. What helps in speed may hurt in other ways.

Now on the other hand, Tony Fleming could probably do the same voyages he did in a dozen other boats with his knowledge and experience.

Well, we don't honestly know what efforts were made to settle. What we do know though is that the legal maneuvering, especially over issues like jurisdiction and which parties should or should not have been sued and trying to remove the parties with assets from the suits, while standard legal fare, sure have worked against having a resolution based on the facts. Also, it is my understanding that we're now in the appeal stage after Kakawi won the opening battle.

Regardless, I don't know how legitimate or exaggerated the claims are. What I do know is that if 10% are true, then it's a horrific indictment of the company. Doesn't matter how much they're exaggerated, the litany of allegations is mind boggling.

Also, today, both Kakawi and Irish Rover are listed for sale. Now that does bring another interesting element in and that is that Kakawi appears to be listed for more than was paid new.

There was also a suit in 2009. Then there's the suit of Composite Structures versus Continental Insurance in a case of injury from carbon monoxide fumes on a Marlow.

I do have the belief which I practiced that a business should avoid litigation even when it sometimes means giving in to someone unreasonable. It causes a lot of damage. Now, I guess it shows that news wise, the Boat industry isn't big, because this litigation hasn't gotten that much attention, certainly very little outside industry sources. Contract situations just don't. I've seen little regarding other manufacturer's litigation and know of other situations. Now, a death in a boat, whether anything to do with the manufacturer or not gets the brand plastered and huge litigation.

I don't by any means know all the facts in this situation. I only know what I've read in the court documents. However, I do know it would alarm me. That said, however, I would not discourage someone from buying a used Marlow that had a very thorough and good survey anymore than I'd say not to buy a used boat from a company that subsequently was bankrupt.

No owner, no matter how egregiuosly skewered will willingly risk what little hope remains of recovering some part of his purchase price. He will not fully admit the scope of problems for fear of further degrading what value might remain.

Why would you think that one of those boats is listed for more than its purchase price?

There is a 97 in LMC at the moment. Maybe a conversation with the captain would be enlightening?

Straight to the heart of the matter, Kafue. Another thing a prospective buyer might ask is "can the issues even be addressed?"

Attached is a photo of a 97 engine room as shown on a brokerage site. Note that because of the low overhead, Marlow has reduced the height of the frames in way of the keel, possibly in order to reduce the tripping hazard a full depth frame might cause(?). What is striking is that each frame appears to be profiled differently, as if cut by a laborer with a Sawzall after construction. I find that a structural curiosity. I have seen this on another 97. That peculiar (to me anyway) type of frame treatment at the keel is present from the laz to the forward engine room bulkhead - but then I am not a naval architect nor do I pretend to be one on a boating forum. But who knows, Marlow isn't talking about it and doesn't respond to such questions. How does one address that? Are there other structural members cut to enable, for example, the installation of cosmetic features?

Of course anyone wanting to know the difference between a Marlow and a Fleming should visit both and ask very pointed questions. The old saying about "where there is smoke, there is fire" might well apply to boat buying as well.

A quick conversation with Tony and his Captain/crew would show that he and the other Fleming people are using the "Venture" to showcase all of the big, small and arcane features that the 65 and other Flemings imbue for making real passages. The other dozen or so boats you refer fall short in comparison regarding design, builder zeal, interest and intent by doing long ocean voyages for showcasing the product.

The Fleming mystique backed up by real world journeys and resale values are not a flash in the pan.

BTW, a good look at the new design Fleming 58 is well worthwhile. That they came up with this design during the latest economic crunch is noteworthy.