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Why shortage of mid size to small aluminum yachts?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by olderboater, Oct 4, 2013.

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  1. olderboater, Oct 4, 2013
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    olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    This is just a question out of curiosity. Aluminum is huge in fishing boats and small boats under 30' or so. It's also big in work boats of all sizes. Then it is very popular starting around 100'. I'm interested in opinions of why not in yachts between 40 and 80 feet. I know there are a few as Burger in the rather distant past built a 76'. Why do the arguments for aluminum at 100' plus not hold for 50'?
  2. RER, Oct 4, 2013
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    RER

    RER Senior Member

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    The under 30' aluminum boat market is weight/trailer/performance driven.

    At 100' plus, in many cases you are talking about a one off design - making it difficult to amortize the cost of fiberglass molds over a number of builds. Of course there are exceptions. There are some big custom fiberglass boats built in the PNW.

    At 50' fiberglass is by far the preferred material among boat buyers due to paint, corrosion, noise, overall fit and finish, etc. Most 50' boats are production or at least semi production and lend themselves to investment in molds for repeated use even with some modifications from one boat to the next. But again, most importantly, the 50' pleasure boat buyer wants fiberglass construction.
  3. MBevins, Oct 4, 2013
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    MBevins

    MBevins Senior Member

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    I suspect it is because the smaller ones you describe can and are basically rivitted outer skins. This is done cost effectively with thin material. Once you go to the larger boats you will need to weld the plates, this requires heavier gauge material. The labor and material costs most likely are now out of sync for cost effective manufacturing with that mid size boat market.
    Once you get above 70' your back in the custom world where owners will pay for the manual labour.
  4. Pascal, Oct 4, 2013
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    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I think the low maintenance of fiberglass is the reason. Over 80 to 100 weight becomes an issue and maintenance concerns diminish.

    Keeping up with the corrosion on an alum takes time and in the owner operator size range, time is limited,
  5. AlfredZ, Oct 4, 2013
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    AlfredZ

    AlfredZ Senior Member

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    Hi there,

    I think you got the answer you need in a nut shell over the first 3 posts! Ain't this a great community?! ;)

    There is a general notion that aluminum boats are a pain to upkeep and maintain. I am one of those that FEAR aluminum in a boat hull and how it ages, suffers fatigue and is not forgiving if left unmaintained for a short while. This part of the conversation is debatable and you have surely seen lots of arguments regarding this subject around here.

    RER has set the perspective from a market point of view, and MBevins from a production stand point, and in my opinion Pascal has given a golden rule of thumb! "... in the owner operator size range, time is limited". The size range you are talking about dictates that the owner in most all cases will be the operator and here operator will have a hidden meaning of captain, technician, cleaner, etc. it is a requirement that the boat is easy to maintain by the least capable handy man and is at the same time forgiving if that operator did not have all the needed time, funds or patience!

    Cheers!
  6. Capt J, Oct 4, 2013
    #6
    Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    What everyone else said. And if you don't go fiberglass for a one off in that size range, most builders find it more beneficial to go with a cold molded in that size range, like many of the custom SF builders.
  7. JWY, Oct 5, 2013
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    JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    I'm not sure maintenance on well built aluminum yachts these days with the advancement of coating and insulation technologyis the same as on older yacht. Because there are no molds, each yacht is basically hand-made and building in aluminum takes skilled workers. The end price is usually higher than a fiberglass production boat turned out in duplicates endlessly. The buyer has to justify the advantages aluminum offers to offset the higher construction costs. I'm not sure the 40-80 buyer gets enough reliable information or sample yachts to inspect to have a compelling need to spend the extra.

    Judy
  8. olderboater, Oct 5, 2013
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    olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    Judy, your points are well made. Many of the same arguments used 100-130' range still would apply 40-80. Some differ. Owner vs. operator is a relevant distinction. So is the fact that a smaller percentage of the 40-80 buyers might be willing to pay a premium. However, in the 100-130 range there are many production glass hulls with semi-custom interiors out of fiberglass and then aluminum at significant price premiums and there is still a very strong aluminum market. There are definitely fewer boats in that range to amortize the design costs over, but some of the glass boats don't exactly get amortized over huge numbers of boats as their volumes are low. What about a Hatteras 80? There could be an argument it's volume doesn't justify the development of production molds.

    I suspect one factor is that if factories were running full, there would be more profit in one 100' boat than perhaps two 80'. The same argument is why some of the leading metal manufacturers don't drop below 150' or don't very often. There may also be a fear of lessening the value of the brand in making smaller, less expensive boats. Moonen does offer a 20 meter model. In the past Burger has built as small as 76 feet that I'm aware of. Burger also launched a 62' commercial boat in 2011. It would be interesting to know if they'd even that range or lower today and what the real cost would be.

    Maybe there is no demand, but I'm not sure with no one offering we really know that.

    Thanks for all the responses. I do find this an interesting discussion.
  9. JWY, Oct 6, 2013
    #9
    JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    I'm not sure I understand why owner vs operator is a relevant distinction. Please explain.

    Le Trawler by Garcia presented a well designed, well constructed 54' aluminum trawler that proved her seakeeping abilities in making the Atlantic crossing from France to US and encountering hurricanes and a submerged container along the way. She did the East Coast boat show circuit and a comment I frequently heard was that for the same price, you can buy x and x, all of which were fiberglass Chinese built production trawlers. I have found this to be common with other aluminum trawlers I have sold.

    I think a lack of buyer knowledge, combined with the successful marketing of other brands is a major drawback in successful sales of aluminum trawlers in the US.
  10. olderboater, Oct 6, 2013
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    olderboater

    olderboater Senior Member

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    The reason another person gave that owner vs. operator plays a role was in the area of the routine maintenance and checks to avoid potential aluminum problems. Even if that is more perceived than real, it would still be an issue.

    I just looked online at the Le Trawler. Interesting. I could see it's uniqueness having some appeal, but it's difference from what people in this country are use to seeing in a trawler that size being a drawback.

    I think the successful marketing of others would make it difficult. It would probably take someone hitting the market very hard with a lot of marketing effort. For instance, at least putting the effort Beneteau put forth on the Swift Trawler. They were trying to make an entry and appeal to a certain purchaser and spent a lot of money promoting plus showing it making the loop.

    Most trawler purchasers have had smaller boats and are use to glass, but then most larger aluminum purchasers have done the same. I think of jet propulsion in runabouts as a comparable. Big in 70's. Died. It took the kind of effort Yamaha put in to make a huge splash again and make them desirable. Meanwhile you still don't see them in over 25' in the mass market. The word is that they don't work on larger sizes, completely ignoring the success of people like Hinckley and AB Yachts.

    My experience in other industries was that it is one thing to develop a new, perhaps better product. That's often not so difficult. But marketing that different product and making it successful is far harder and requires a huge investment. Look at what Hanes has spent just to tell people they don't have labels. You have to convince people they have a need.

    I think for instance I would at least give consideration to a mid range aluminum yacht. But without huge marketing efforts others would not. Even in my case, there are boats in those size ranges that meet my needs so I don't feel some great desire wishing there was one. I imagine one could get one built by someone like Burger or Moonen. It's just to me personally, it wouldn't be worth the effort or the wait when there are already boats in that range that satisfy my perceived needs. So, if the yacht was there, ready for delivery, I'd give it strong consideration. But, meanwhile I'm fine with the choices available.

    I did not realize how many steel trawlers in that mid size range there are until looking at your site. With the market for "swift trawlers," I guess any of them could introduce aluminum. They would probably be far more likely ones to make that entry successfully than those currently making larger yachts. I really hadn't noticed them so much as I'm just not a potential trawler purchaser.

    Thanks so much for your insight.
  11. rmjranch, Oct 6, 2013
    #11
    rmjranch

    rmjranch Member

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    Aluminum Yacht

    I have an 80' all Aluminum Jongert Motor Yacht. The boat has crossed the Atlantic 6 times on her own bottom. We just returned last week from a 4000 plus mile trip from Miami to the end of the Caribbean. We went in the summer because the weather is suppose to be calm and flat seas. Anyway, all the way south, except for the first day (first day crossed the gulf stream, flat calm), it was 25 Knot winds and seas over 6 feet. On one run, from the island of Saba to St Kitts, about 6 hours, it was an honest 6 to 8 with plenty of 10 foot waves. It was straight on the bow. The boat went thru it without a problem. We were all on the bridge enjoying the ride and drinking tea and reading.
    My last boat was a 49' glass Grand Banks classic. We NEVER would have gone out in that weather (much smaller boat).
    Anyway, we were out on my boat today and I chatted with the Captain. He has experience on many large yachts. His feeling is that our Aluminum boat, is a far better sea boat, than large similar yacht of the same size and weight, made of fiberglass. He just feels it rides better when the going gets rough.
  12. K1W1, Oct 6, 2013
    #12
    K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Has your Jongert got the 3406's as main engines?
  13. JWY, Oct 6, 2013
    #13
    JWY

    JWY Senior Member

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    I have been a fan of this outstanding yacht for many years. Glad to hear of your recent cruising. Thanks for posting.

    Judy
  14. K1W1, Oct 6, 2013
    #14
    K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    If it is the same one am thinking of I was shown around in San Diego in 1999, It is a proper little ship.
  15. rmjranch, Oct 6, 2013
    #15
    rmjranch

    rmjranch Member

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    Engines

    3406B engines. On the trip home from St Lucia, ran 82 hours nonstop- never missed a beat.