12v92 seized

Have a DD mechanic to an inspection to advise best action.

Hi,

There is a member here called Bayside Bert, he has had it done both ways several times and had a heck of an adventure along the way.

His biggest battle seemed to be finding a reliable contractor who knew what they were doing and doing what they said they would.

Most Detroit rebuilds are not due to a seized engine. Seized engine can mean bent rods, crank, etc. Many DD rebuilds have very little lower engine work needed. With a seized engine I would definitely pull the engine. How much are you estimating for rebuilding a seized engine? I'd ball park it at $60K to $70K.

If you don't know what caused the seize and how serious it is, spending some dollars on an survey may save you a bundle later, don't go into this blind, find out first how serious the problem is , then plan the fix.

Yes, It could be something simple. Get some history also. Last rebuild? Service history? How well was it running before it locked up? How long has it been sitting?
D#$%$ 12v92s, are you sure you want to feed those things?
If your head over heels in love with the boat and you do end up with an expensive rebuild quote, check out some re-power quotes with rebuilt later model Cats or something.

I would second this thought. Very few people want a '54 Bertram with 12v92's, and I'd stick Cat C18's in there long before I'd rebuild 12v92.s I'd also convert the entire boat to 24volts at this time.

That being said, 12v92's main problem besides o-rings for cylinder head gaskets that fail, is the flexing between the two blocks and what it does to the internals. Most rebuilders will do so with the motors in place. A good rebuilder can rebuild them well. But a siezed engine is a can of worms. It really has to be dismantled to see if it's a rebuildable core. The bores might have to be bored out and larger sleeves used if the bores are egg shaped from overheating. etc etc......Jhall is giving you good advice.

Pull the engine and do it right. I was in your same position a few years ago and wasted $100k while two different scumbag shops wasted their time and my money. Ultimately, a true pro built the engine on the stand for $45k and put it in the boat. The interior comes out easier than you think and the entire built engine goes in through that rear window. I will NEVER EVER attempt an in hull overhaul again. All you need to do is remove the rear couch and pull up the carpet. That will expose the two 4x8 or so plywood panels that will expose each engine. You have the perfect boat to pull the engine so there is just no good excuse not to.

PM me if you want the names of the scumbags.

Here is a photo of the good guy. That's John Carey of Carey's Diesel, Leipsic, DE with my port side engine. He took it from basket case in the back of a box truck to built and installed in 30 days. What a nice guy and true professional.

If you had an extra $350k. Do you? Have you done that?

I'd have a good shop overhaul the 12V92 on the stand and stick it in the boat. About $50k instead of $350k. The 32V system is absolutely no issue at all because you have a 12V system from the genny's already and just use a step down to 24V for the things that need that.

And .. of course, all of these big old boats are difficult to sell so don't even think about that!

My Big ol Bert is awesome. Spent time today putting a few pieces of art on board. It's a gorgeous, pristine boat with 20 knot cruise at 1850 rpm.

Yesterday, loaded 9 good friends including the 105 yr old mother of a good friend ... cruised to Castine, Maine for some oysters. What a boat!

Here are the fresh Michigan Wheel DQX Nibral 4 blade 28x27 Props

In the slings at Front Street Shipyard, Belfast Maine after a quick week of work.

On the mooring for the day at Bayside, Maine.

IMO the best Bert ever!
In Napier we trust!

A couple of friends were in town ... they stayed on Big Buddy because our seasonal cottage was a bit chilly and put away for the season. The Bertram 54 is a nice place to spend some time.

Granted ... to be glorious again, it required a refit. But it didn't require a re-power. Just needed to get the engines working right.

12v92's are a totally different animal than the 12v71's you have in your boat. They don't last nearly as long and the boat he's looking at, it might not even be rebuildable. I ran a 1991 58' Striker, that by the time 2004 rolled around, the motors had been majored 6 times, yes 6 times. You could put C18's in their for a heck of a lot less than $350k......more like $200k since the HP range is close, the shafts, struts and everything wouldn't have to be changed, plus you'll get some back on the sale of the old motors. Not to mention all of the accessories on the motor are new as well. I'm not trying to sound rude, but if you added up all of your costs rebuilding the same motor 3 times, plus loss of use, you'd be well on your way towards a set of C18's that have a warranty. I've seen lots of rebuilds that have had to be rebuilt twice to get them right. Especially when you're buying a motor you have no idea of it's history, and it's seized and for how long. You'll also have a lot better fuel economy, 85gph at cruise versus 120gph with 12v92 JTs and most likely a slightly faster cruise speed. You'll also have a much better resale value and easier resale. I would recommend rebuilding 12v71's...... 12v92's if you have the opportunity, yank them out......

If you're getting into rebuilding the starters and alternators, I would make the switch to 32 volts. You cannot even buy a 32v Jabsco blower anymore, which is what those boats came with, you have to buy a 24v blower and then buy the 32v motor seperately and swap it. 32v parts are getting harder and harder to come by......just like the only bilge pump you're going to find in 32volts is a rule 2000, great for the bilge not so great for a shower sump......

Great post, Bert. Ditto on the 54 being the best. Thanks for the pictures - I'm sure the informative experience will be helpful to OP. You do RB proud, may he RIP.

Judy

I don't deny that the C18 would be a great engine for my boat or any other Bertram 54 where the owner wanted to spend the same amount as he would spend buying a 2005 Viking or so. It's a rich mans game.

Few owners use their boats in such a way that they would wear out a 12V92 overhaul before being ready to sell for other reasons anyway. And ... with regard to fuel, I have learned it's a relatively insignificant expense. When you are playing in the world of $9,200 set of propellers and $30k side window replacements (including all the teak refit), $3k for fuel is no big deal. In a commercial application or rich man traveling full time ... sure ... maybe. Heck, I might put C18's in my boat someday. For fun.

With regard to the Jabsco blowers ... they were used in my bathrooms as fans. Totally ineffective but I did replace a 32V one a year or two ago. Still cannot figure out where the air is plumbed too. Nobody has been able to answer that question

I replaced my horrible Galley Maid toilets with Raritan Atlantes and a Hold N San Purasan system ... (24V Hold N San) .. toilets are 32V. I had an option to choose 24V and the mechanics opted for the 32V. Readily available ... no problem.

I run a Newmar 32V to 24V (40A) stepdown converter. It powers my davit and the Purasan. A very simple solution instead of buying new charging systems.

John Carey had a pair of DaeWoo 12 cylinder engines he was ready to put in my boat. Minimum with no extras would have been in the range of $250k. Nobody is going to get out of the shop with fresh C18's, new transmissions and everything else that goes along with a job like that for under $300k.

My experience with the failed 12V71 overhauls was fraud plain and simple. The one Orange Beach Yacht yard had just experienced the BP Oil spill when my fresh overhaul failed and the owner decided to share the pain with me. $65k down the drain. The next guy simply took my $25k deposit and went on a safari to Africa. You can't make this stuff up.

The good news is that in all the years I have fooled around with big boy toys, these were the worst two experiences of fraud I have experienced. It's now behind me. I believe that by removing the engine from the boat and building it on the stand, the likelihood of half ass work is dramatically reduced.

John Carey said my cylinder sleeves were so poorly fit "during my $65k in hull overhaul by the "Orange Beach, AL" facility that my overhaul was going to fail shortly even if the cylinder head had not failed. I didn't use the word scumbags loosely.

While I don't know what the issue is with the seized engine, on the broader scale I've had no issue finding and using qualified honest Detroit Diesel marine mechanical services up and down the east coast of the USA. There's a set of S&S 16-92's (pre DDEC) in the 65 sportfish I captain and I've had fewer issues than many of my peers with non DD power. I like the 92's in this boat, and if the OP chooses to keep and repair, I think that is a fine choice- if it works out within budget. Others have chimed in that you may not know what needs replacing until the engine is dismantled, I agree. You may be able to find a set of newer matching 12-92's and replace both.

The other question is, what condition is the other engine in? If this one is seized, I'd plan on rebuilding both motors. How long has the boat been sitting with the seized engine and not gone anywhere or has been started.

Just remember ... remove the salon couch and carpet ... take up the carpet and pull the panels to expose the engines.

Remove the large rear window.

Now, a crane can dip right in there and remove either engine ... whole.

It's really a great boat in that regard. The amount of demo work required pales in comparison to many other larger boats.