At what size do you no longer feel like you're boating

Ok, let me try to explain what I'm asking for opinions on here. I love boating. I love taking a Cobalt out on a lake. I love the feel of driving a Riva from Fort Lauderdale to Key West. I love a Sea Ray type on the Tennessee River. But now I'm finalizing my decision on a larger yacht. While having a crew, I do still intend to learn to both Pilot and Navigate, as does my wife. We do intend to spend a lot of time in the pilothouse and at the upper helm if it has one as well. We intend to supplement our own experience with training by our Captains and formal training at a local Maritime school. Now we'll still have smaller boats for play. We fully intend to learn over the years to do everything relative to Captaining a boat outside of the mechanical tasks.

We started thinking in the 80-90 foot range and soon found ourselves at 100'. We do still seem to get the feeling we're after behind the wheel in the 90-100' ranges. Note we are looking at semi-displacement hulls capable of speeds over 20 knots. Our requirements were the ability to have this speed but also the ability at a slower speed to make an Atlantic crossing so range in excess of 2000 nm and really for any level of comfort in excess of 2500 nm. This is where the size kept having to creep up as the smaller yachts just don't have that range unless strictly trawlers.

Note that much of our cruising will be the two of us plus crew. Then often it will be just four to six passengers. We will have only those rare times of off shore entertainment of 10-15 passengers. Typically we will spend one to two months on the boat at a time, then broken by a period at home. So if it's an extended cruise it will probably go something like, two months cruise, fly home for a month, two more cruise, home a month, two more cruising.

So now the 100' even started creeping up in some cases based on fuel capacity. Also in some lines the pricing difference between 100' and 112' or so is often minimal considering the total price. Now leaping to 130' or so is much greater. Still at 130' you can get an incredible boat. One fear we've had however is that at some point beyond 100' you no longer feel like you're boating or even driving a boat (and I know driving a boat is not a term yachtsmen would use but we still like it). Suddenly it's like you're on a cruise ship and cruise ships do not interest us. Now I know that the 200'+ yachts would be that way to us. But does that start to happen at 120' or 140' or 175'? Now I've talked to those with a 130' Westport and they say they still haven't lost the boating feeling. We certainly intend to do sea trials on some of these models but would like the collective YF experience.

For the record, here are the lines and models we're currently considering and our leanings as of this moment as well as a couple we've most recently eliminated.

We loved the advertised functionality of the Marlow 97E but have eliminated it and all Marlows from our consideration. First the fact that all 97E's have quickly hit the used market is frightening and then reading about the Kakawi dispute is enough to scare us away.

We do like Hargraves, the 101, 114 and 125 and the pricing on the 125 is great. However, we've sort of decided that, everything else being equal and since the majority of our contenders are US manufactured, then we'll probably go with a US built boat. This is not being overly nationalistic because we truly aren't, just a choice here. We own Italian, German, and Japanese automobiles so make no claim to strictly buy US. It's just that naturally three of the four lines we had narrowed to are US made.

I'd say the leader right now to us is probably Westport. We're considering the 98, 112 and 130 and if we were choosing today we'd probably buy the Westport 112. Also under consideration are the two Ocean Alexanders manufactured by Christiansen, the 112' and 120'. Then there is the Hatteras 100'. We wouldn't make a move there until one actually hits the water as completed.

So interested in responses to the original question posed as well as any comments on the boats we're considering. Any and all opinions welcomed even by those thinking we're totally insane.

Thanks for the reply.

Certainly reliability and redundancy are very important as is proper crew and onboard support. With the other boats we own or will own having qualified engineering skills available is important. Also, it will be our plan to supplement where necessary with captains with local or applicable experience. For instance, if we ventured as far on the west coast as Alaska, we would want a Captain/Pilot who was from that area. In fact, it's a requirement on some vessels. Similarly, if we went to Europe, we'd want someone familiar with the area. We haven't found any major problems with any of the boats now under consideration.

We have budgeted running costs and attempted to even provide high side contingencies. Even things like the air travel and we would do some switching out of crew during the longer trips so our Captains and the others could get some time home. So that's additional air. Ah, and don't need to worry about their parents, they are deceased, just daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter, and I'm sure their granddaughter will accompany us on some of the trips during college breaks.

Certainly we do see the costs involved with a 130 vs a 100 as more. Docking and fuel costs certainly significantly more as is hauling and yardwork and just general maintenance. That is one additional factor discouraging us from the 130 as you're even more limited on shipyards that can haul it. In South Florida we're lucky as there are 330 and 660 ton travelift's, but when cruising in many areas that capability will not be there.

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I do know about the needs for additional crew. I do respectfully disagree with you regarding the value of a local captain. He would not be taking over but working on a contract basis for my captains. I think one can provide some great benefit in areas where one lacks familiarity, knowing local secrets, first hand knowledge of marinas, and all those things not shown in charts or guidebooks. Can it be done without one? Of course. But does one provide some benefit, I do believe so.

You say you wouldn't take a Westport 112 so I'm curious as to whether you would a Westport 130 (I'm guessing not), a Hatteras 100 or an Ocean Alexander 120.

Someone recommended privately going to Delta. Now I do know they've done 124's but don't know if they've gone that small recently.

Yes, I've done a lot of calculations on fuel at various speeds and do understand what you're saying. The intent wouldn't be to run 20 knots all the time but it might well be so on trips up the coast and things like that. The specific Nassau trip you mention, I'd take over and back and then get fueled the next day at my dock at home by Peterson. But let's say going up the Eastern seaboard on an extended trip, you're right that the higher speed would require fueling every couple of days.

As to something like Nordhavn, I've certainly considered them as an option. I've followed the delivery of their 120 carefully and they did run across even on it some weather conditions and delays, so would have been more so on a lesser boat. I'm less familiar with Northern Marine but will research.

One thing that I may have to consider is something just for the transatlantic, transpacific or otherwise very extended long trips over oceans or rough waters and using another one of my boats for the near coastal travel. My plans already include multiple boats for different uses so maybe I'll just find myself rethinking the combinations.

All these words of wisdom are appreciated. I always appreciate as much input as possible in matters where my experience is limited. I also have time to evaluate as my Trans-Atlantic trip isn't for at least 3-5 years. In 2014, I intend to spend my boating time on the East Coast, in the Bahamas and in the Gulf. Then in following years, more in the Caribbean, through the Canal to the West Coast, north to Canada and around to Montreal and the Great Loop probably come before crossing any ocean. While my name says Older, I'm older I guess than those on many web forums but don't consider myself at all old as I'm in my 40's so some of my adventures on the water will come 10 or 15 or even 20 years from now. Circling the globe may or may not ever be in plans as there are some areas I am fine avoiding for now, those with high piracy and no desire for icebergs. I do have a good grasp of what one encounters on the near coastal navigation and the capabilities of various boats to handle them to our desires. It is the crossing of oceans where the input received here is being most valuable.

It's also great here to get input from those in other regions. Many even experienced and capable yachtsmen have prejudices based on their location. I've talked to those who are going to answer every question with Hatteras and then a couple of locals who claim nothing less than a 193' Trinity. That is another hot topic, construction material. Steel vs Composite vs Aluminum. I similarly had someone say they wouldn't take a Trinity across because they would not go in any Aluminum boat regardless of size.

I like the boating vs. no longer boating answers too and your 80 vs 100. Someone else also said in the enclosed Pilothouse no and on the flybridge it's still boating. We do intend to charter occasionally over the next months to get the feel for various sizes.

Interesting thoughts.

Ok, the touching the water from the cockpit, I hadn't thought of that one, now going to have to.

Today Belle and I wouldn't feel comfortable docking anything over 50-60 feet alone but we certainly intend to develop more knowledge and skill. Just because we can doesn't mean we won't use Captains too, but I'm with you on just handling the size.

As to servicing the systems, thats not me at all. I have no desire to be able to do that. Now I do want to know how to monitor and some basic emergency type things, especially things like fuel filters and those things that can leave you stranded most easily even on a smaller boat.

As to guests, we do not intend to serve our guests hand and foot at home or on a boat. Since we moved into our house here, we've had at least two guests overnight at least 90% of the weekends, and we typically have 8-12 every Sunday, but these are make yourself at home kinds of guests. Most are so close that when they're here on Saturday, they may just decide Saturday evening, they're staying (they live within 10-25 miles) and they just go pick out the room they're use to if it's vacant. We don't do formal entertaining. We have friends over. Now made one exception for employees of the small businesses I've collected but even that was a cookout by the pool and the cooking was all done by us and the couple that manages our home for us. The only time we've used caterers and hired waitresses was throwing a party for some friends in their 80's at their home. They use to love formal entertaining and were no longer up to it.

The waterside restaurant, we have boats or have on order boats for the trips to restaurants within South Florida. Now you do give me the thought though and that is the ability to get to the sites along the way when cruising. For instance, I think of the NC coast. Beaufort and Morehead City are easy. But Bellhaven and Elizabeth City and areas like that more limiting.

But one of the thoughts I am getting is that finding a boat for coastal and near coastal cruising and also for Ocean crossing in one boat may not be a reasonable expectation. That being the case would allow one to go smaller for the coastal and larger and slower for the oceans. This was already something we were considering and your input is helping greatly.

I'm seeing the divide more clearly and so started another question as well. I see delaying the ocean crossing yacht a bit......but do still see that as something I want......but not trying to serve multiple purposes. I have looked at Dockwise and think of it for some time and some things. But I also want to experience crossing the oceans one day as well and other long range cruising. I was already being advised somewhat as what I'm hearing here...makes things a lot more practical. I value all the advice I'm getting.

Several are talking about custom builds but I prefer something on a proven hull, even if the interior is custom. I like to be almost on the leading edge, not completely on it. So a custom builder but a hull design that has proven itself.

Actually for the loop boat I'm strongly considering a Hatteras 60 MY without the hardtop on the bridge and a modification to a hinged arch. The top of windshield is 15'. The top of the arch is 19'9" but that's also without the electronics on it. I've seen several other brands hinge the arches just for that purpose. The other modification from their standard is to add a lower helm station. Last I would go for the optional crew cabin. Draft is 4'6" which isn't bad for a boat in that range. Also while 50' or less is better for loop dockage, 60' works most of the way. I don't want less boat for several reasons. 1-Space for long cruises. 2-Safety for near coastal as I don't want to run ICW all the way. 3-I intend to spend some extended Great Lakes time at some point. 4-The gunwales are high and side decks are 13" giving ease and safety of getting to the bow for handling of lines, docking, anchoring and locking is good. 5-It's easy to get fully equipped with all the electronics and all the conveniences associated with larger boats.

This was never dependent on what I do for near coastal and/or ocean as this boat may find itself docked elsewhere much of the time. As we do want to explore rivers including the Tennessee, Cumberland and Ohio docking at Aqua Yacht Harbor on Pickwick, for instance, is quite conducive to that. While we will cover the entire loop over time, we're not in a rush and don't feel compelled to do it in one run or even a year. Ideally timing the Northeast so that one could hit the run from the Atlantic to the Great Lakes in June would then give an opportunity to leave it in Chicago or elsewhere on the Great Lakes through August and then get quickly down the Illinois and Mississippi to warmer weather.

I'm sure you stood out doing the loop in a 75'. I know a lot of loopers discourage anything over 40', I've known many to go up to 60' and be quite happy they did.