$3.00 Gas in U.S. in Summer of 2012? Lower Prices Expected...

I wasn't trying to turn this into a 'political' debate. I was just trying to point out that a VERY PROFITABLE' (in the top ten of the world) company should not be receiving tax benefits/subsidies to conduct their business.

I had 3 businesses of my own over the years. And I wrote 6 of my friends who all had businesses of their own over the years. NOT one of them ever reported having been give subsidies to run their businesses.

I'd have to look it up to site specific examples but if I remember correctly some of the oil company's 'incentives' are paid out to help them go explore for new oil......BUT isn't that part of the definition of their business??...why should they be receiving special tax deferments/incentives to conduct that business. maybe if they were a young upstart business they might require that help. But not such a huge profitable company that's up and running and conducting their business in a most profitable manner.

Both of your "references" come from the same biased site... The fact that they call something a subsidy doesn't mean it is a subsidy...

The fossil fuel industry is still a NET tax paying industry (unlike the solar energy industry)... To refer to tax breaks (available to pretty much every industry) as a subsidy is ludicrous!... The government isn't PAYING the oil industry anything!... The fact that they may chose to not COLLECT as much tax as they could otherwise do is not a subsidy...

The fossil fuel industry (unlike the solar energy industry) will exists regardless of the taxes the government will take... The only difference will be the price we pay at the pump...

IOW, if anything, it's us, the consumers, who are being subsidized!...

I'm not an accountant, but I do know the difference between 'gross income' and 'net income'. I would also hope these reporting news sites know that difference also when they report ' most profitable' or 'biggest net' incomes. THATS PROFIT after spending your cost of doing business.

Fortune 500 2012: Top Performers - Most Profitable Companies: Profits

Forecast: 10 most profitable U.S. companies in 2013

The Top 10 Most Profitable Companies in America (NASDAQ: AAPL) | StreetAuthority

I just chose the two sites at the top of my search list. I'm sure I could have found MANY MORE, but didn't feel the time was warranted.

subsidy - definition of subsidy by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.
Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group in support of an enterprise regarded as being in the public interest

Subsidy Definition | Investopedia
A benefit given by the government to groups or individuals usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction. The subsidy is usually given to remove some type of burden and is often considered to be in the interest of the public.

Politics play an important part in subsidization. In general, the left is more in favor of having subsidized industries, while the right feels that industry should stand on its own without public funds.

Unlike the fossil fuel 'industry' in general that has existed for a long time and is somewhat a stable industry, the solar energy (and other alternative energy themes) are in development stages. For the public good it may need some public help (subsidy) to get over that hump to become a viable profitable industry.

The solar panel industry which has been sited here on a number of occasions, and so popularized on FOX news has VERY serious contenders in China that have undercut the pricing, making if far more difficult to become a profitable business. That shouldn't mean that we just allow all of our potential solar panel research go away in this country.

T Boon Pickens was asking for a subsidy to help with his very ambitious Wind Farm project. But he wasn't asking for money to help build that giant wind farm (he would fund that all himself). He was asking for government help to get the right-away to built the powerlines that would allow him to connect that wind farm with the power grid of the USA. Personally I thought this was a much more reasonable request by private industry for government help than many that get funded now as a result of very powerful lobby efforts here in Wash DC.

Literately

Price Manipulation & Gambling Table Games

The fuel prices at the pump have undergone a sharp rise in the last month, and I was looking to see if there was any correlations with the rise in crude oil prices, particularly if there was corresponding reasoning. I found this:

“It is obvious that the OIL market is manipulated, oil has gone nowhere for 5 months because there is no reason for it to go anywhere, i.e., are a ton of supplies on the market, no Middle east disruptions, Israel hasn't attacked Iran, huge builds in gasoline products, no jump in demand.

And yet oil mysteriously rises $10 in this common period for manipulating markets at the tail end of the year, and the beginning of the new year. Lets juice it up before the contract rollover, no one cares, no one is really looking too closely at what we are doing, everybody is focusing on the fiscal cliff issues and the debt ceiling debate..........”

http://etfdailynews.com/2013/01/10/price-manipulation-no-fundamental-reason-for-oil-to-move-higher//


...a few more excerpts from that article..

"Asset Class, Euphemism for Roulette Table

Prices are not determined by the fundamentals in a manipulated market they are determined by oil being an “Asset Class” which is code word or a euphemism for giant Casino in New York instead of Vegas.

So we cannot legally play poker online in this country, but you can pull up your internet connection, and place your wager on the price of oil, such hipocracy in this country. The price of oil, and as such gas is determined not by supply and demand factors, but by whether Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley or J.P. Morgan puts $400 million on Black or Red, the literal Oil Roulette game of the big banks.

If Goldman Sachs puts $400 million on Black prices go up, if they put $400 million on Red prices go down, as simple as that, this is actually how the price of oil is determined, nothing more and nothing less.

Market Correlation & Wagering Strategy"

Anything industry entity that is a NET tax contributor is, by definition, not subsidized!... And yes, politics do play a role... As do public perceptions (whether right or wrong), for example, global warming...

You're assuming they can become viable industries... But, what you're also saying is, lets take tax money from tax paying industries to fund their future competition...

Start a tariff WAR?...and guess where that might escalate to?? I've worked over in SE Asia, and in the energy market. I'm nervous about future escalations of tensions with China over energy resources.

You really need to do more reading on this subject. Look closely at the particular region that Boon Pickens was proposing his wind farm,...almost constant supply of wind.

We have an energy gird (interconnective grid) in this country for a reason. So we can divide out 'base station' supplies with intermediate supplies, with peaking supplies.

What we really need more of are good 'energy storage devices', particularly in the form of electric energy storage devices where we could store electric energy in ready anticipation of usage. Then we could really make use of output from that BIG nuclear reactor in our sky.

Some folks don't take into account the big budgets of the individual States that are funded by the gas taxes. Many State governments would be extremely hard pressed if they had to go without gasoline taxes. And it is for this reason that we will have extreme difficulties in ever 'changing' or 'modifying' the system. BUT we have to be thinking about some changes as that good old oil supply may be on the downside supply slope,...or certainly we should be taking that into account? Or do you want to wait until it suddenly smacks us in the head before we take it under consideration?

You are being taken advantage of by the major players. Have a look at 'pay-as-you-go' cell phone systems that many of the Europeans utilize, and are available in this country. Net10 is one of them,...10 cents per minute, $6 per hour, no contracts, no monthly charges, minutes carry over into next month . And put your kids on a budget of telephone time. If they want more time each month they need to visit a store and buy an extra time card.

I am NOT suggesting that the oil companies should go away, or be hampered in a severe manner. I'm simply asking them to pay a fair share of theiur taxes as do many other industries and businesses in the good old USA....and many of those businesses do it WITHOUT SPECIAL TAX BREAKS that many unrepresented companies (no lobby support) can't muster in their defense.

Why are we still paying a subsidy to sugar growers, ...or to some farmers NOT to plant their land,...or to.....

If the US can prove that the Chinese are dumping the solar panels (and that's not that difficult to do) then it would have the WTO at it's side... Yes, China should be respected but lets not try to feed the crocodile in the hope it will go away...

Thank you but no thank you... Both me and my brother are mechanical engineers (BSc) and my brother even works for a utility co... I'm very familiar with the proposals and existing technologies... If that particular proposal really was "almost constant supply of wind" (which I doubt) then it would be the exception to the rule... Most wind farms don't even come close to that...

The further you send the energy over the grid the more power you lose... So, the fact that you have a surplus of power in NV doesn't mean a thing in NY...

The problem is that they don't exist... You can't argue that wind and/or solar are better based on a nonexistent link in that proposal... We're all boaters here, do I need to remind you that not so long ago all boats were wind powered?!... Do you remember how that worked out?!... Do you remember the term "doldrums"?!... Do you know that sail ships of old made voyages that were the opposite of the optimum (often doubling the milage if not more) so as to be able to make use of favorable winds?!...

On the subject of refinery capacity. It's the west coast where this is the biggest problem. We only have four states on the west coast, California, Washington, Oregon, and Alaska. The environmental lobbies in these states prevent construction of refinery capacity (well, federal law makes it practically impossible to build a new refinery, since '76, it's expansion of existing refineries that the states block). The keystone XL pipeline is intended to move the DilBit from the west coast to Texas, where the local resistance to oil refineries is significantly reduced.

As to a tariff war, I think that is a terrible idea. For one, china dumping solar panels doesn't stop the big competition for solar panels, which is coal, which we produce. For another, our country dumps cheap grain on the world through subsidies. It's one of our major exports, people in glass houses ought not to throw stones.

Pascal has it right. There is no such thing as "special tax breaks" for oil companies. They get the SAME tax breaks that other corporations get. No more and no less. The demonization of the oil companies has led to this notion that they get something that other companies do not.

In addition, everyone (especially the govt) looks at their profits and wants more of it to go into the tax coffers but look at the margin percentage and you will not see anything resembling huge.

Lastly, what every government nitwit fails to connect the dots on is that these are publicly traded corporations that are pillars of retirement funds. Hurt the companies, hurt the stock/bonds, hurt the retirees of all kinds of plans including the public sector unions. Then plan a bailout.

Mascoma Corp comes to mind.


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Refining Tar Sands Oil ??

I'll have to go back and reread this subject thread, but I was wondering about the 'refinery capacity' to deal with all of that Canadian tar sands oil??

The opening posting on this subject thread quoted,

Now we have all been thru these 'excuses' in the past for the latest gas price increases being blamed on lack of refinery capacity, or down for maintenance, or no new permits to build new refineries, etc, etc

Well I got to wondering, how are they going to accommodate all that Canadian tar sands oil that is even more problematic to refine??

Refine it in Canada ?

Why is it necessary to transport that nasty tar sands oil across one of the MAJOR aquifers for our farm states?....and then add the extra pollution in our southern states to refine the stuff??

Why can't they build a new refinery up in Canada to at least refine it to the point that it lass hazardous to ship by pipeline.??