What defines an Expedition Yacht?

I think that everyone is in agreement as to the broad brush strokes. What Carl seems to have been asking is how we make the determination of whether or not a particular yacht meets the bar.

Can you put a lower bound on what you would consider fairly long range, or what kinds and volumes of provision storage area is needed?

Never mentioned anything about length. When it comes down to it, naming a boat an "Expedition" or whatever is just a marketing name, not a class of vessel.

As far as using a boat for an expedition, unless it is professional or research orientated, isn't it just a matter of "cruising" anways?

Where there is a will, there is a way; where there is no will, there is no way

What you seem to be saying is that expedition means nothing, but aren't there people who want to go spend 3 months out in a bay or cruise around antarctic waters with out refueling or reprovisioning? Even if it's not for science or business if someone needs those capabilities or would like those capabilities isn't that a distinction with a difference?

If it has just become a marketing term for a boat that doesn't look sleek is it time to set standards and take it back?

One interesting thing in the review is that Judy mentioned lots of things that she noted as "un-expedition"-ish, could be altered by choice, so it is back to the prospect owner's vision of limits and potential for a "long range" or "expedition" yacht, and I noticed that once you pass the 60' mark, long range gets thinned by "long comfort" and wasted space! Like in the EP69, instead of more storage for anything, they give you more master stateroom space! like you will spend so much time in it to say: "Good thing I didn't get onna them tiny rooms"!! and they had two engines on it, yet it crawled! I can't understand that! What added to my puzzle is that the review was done in confined waters because the weather in open water was rough, yet less than half the rough such a boat should be designed and capable of taking on, I understand safety and insurance, but I guess the agents should have taken advantage of the weather to prove the capability, especially when someone as seasoned in such category as Judy is on board. To me, this boat won the stigma of coastal cruiser, not long range expedition.

I liked the notes Fishtigua mentioned regarding the technical and physical capabilities for abuse endurance.

The same problem I see going with many builders that at certain boat sizes there seems to be no market for true expedition boats, (between 60 and 100 feet I guess), so they cater to luxury or form more than function. For example, so we don't look like we're bashing Horizon, notice the size evolution of Nordhavn, once you are past the 60' mark, it becomes a different boat! and while 40'ers from Nordhavn are doing wonders, larger ones don't have such capabilities other than being more stable than regular yachts. I think, the definition of an expedition yacht is in the check-book of the expeditionary!

Just a thought!

Sorry for misunderstanding, I thought it was the other way around.

I notice the word "cruise" continues to pop up in your replies and I couldn't agree more. Instead of using exclusionary terms like Expedition implies, I would just type cast these vessels as an LRC or Long Range Cruisers. But hey, I am definitely not working as the Marketing guy.....
The individual who has some specific Expedition style cruise planned would highly customize the vessel of choice anyways.
On paper, this vessel seems more than capable of an expedition to let's say the Galapagos, so I wouldn't be overly concerned with parameterizing an Expedition vessel into any specific "box" of requirements.

If by "continues to pop up" you mean I've used it exactly twice on this forum, and the other time I was talking about the Costa Concordia, then sure.

LRC seems to be just one, maybe two (you can cruise 6000NM in 30 days, but might not have three months of provisions available to do so), of the three characteristics that we all seem to agree on an expedition yacht needing.

I do agree that someone with a specific expedition in mind could spec out specifically what they are looking for, but the same could be said for someone looking for just about anything. The labels are there to be useful, some people don't know before they buy a boat specifically how many miles they will have to go out and come back for their desired destination, some people haven't worked out all the specific logistics before they start, but still know that they will want to get far off the beaten path, or to have the characteristics needed to go one something you might call an expedition.

So, when will AIS show a track of you and your canoe exploring around Antarctic waters with out refueling or reprovisioning for 3 months?

If it was not immediately apparent I was referring to the Louis and Clark expedition.

Horizon EP 69

Some points for the EP 69 out of my personal experience:

The Horizon EP 69 was not really planned as an expedition yacht. The EP 69 and its bigger sister, the EP 77 are originally the Drettman Bandido 66 and the Bandido 75. Even if physically build at Horizon Yachts Taiwan, the Bandidos and its semi displacement / planning sisters, the Elegance Line (today the E-Series), were promoted, planned, supervised and sold by Drettmann Yachts in Bremen, Germany. All equippment was ordered in Germany, delivered to Drettmann and send via container to Taiwan. A representative from Drettmann watched the build in Taiwan.

The Drettmann Bandidos and Elegance Yacht were very good quality boats and selling in remarkable Numbers. If you travel to the balearic islands (Mallorca) you will see Bandidos and Elegance Yachts in every harbour. Because of their semi custom setup some of the boats had really special designs and layouts (like the strange galley layout of the test boat). But as we say, beautiness is in the eye of the beholder.

The Trademarks Bandido 66 and Bandido 75 were and are still property of Drettmann Yachts. When Drettmann went bankrupt in 2009 / 2010 the Trademarks became part of the insolvent assets and were kept by the liquidator. The design of the boats and the molds remained property of Horizon (What a mess !). After the seperation of Drettmann and Horizon, for legal reasons, the Bandidos turned into the EP 69 and the EP 77, the Elegance Yachts into E-Series and are now solely Horizon products.

The EP 69 comes standard with 2900 gal of fuel and a quite functional layout. Because the EP 69 in reality is a downscaled EP 77 and the emphasis was layed on internal volume, the 69 is not a very sleek yacht, its more a sharpend container which has to be pushed through the water. The fuel consumption chart reflect that. The 8 gal/h at 8 to 8,5 Kts is a figure you will see also on the bigger EP 77. If you lay the throttles on the deck, the fuel consumption goes ballistic. If you push her hard against a 3 foot wave, she rides hard, wet and noisy. With the stabis working hard, the fuel consumption goes up also. Like mentioned above, she is more a costal cruiser than a passage maker and likes protected waters.

If you really want an expedition yacht under 80 feet for world wide cruising and for crossing oceans, the EP 77 is the much better choice. If optimized in layout and equipment for long range cruising with its fuel storage of 4700 Gal and large cold and dry bunker for 6 to 8 guest plus 2 Crew, she can travel at reasonable speed more than 4000 NM nonstop. The single engine cruise, like mentioned on the test, is not a good option on the 77. At hull speed that range may go down to a quarter of the above. It is a full displacement trawler yacht, period. Not a beauty but very functional. Her decks and aft platform provide sufficient space for tender and toys.

But it is a big boat with a fully loaded dísplacement of more than 100 metric tons. To big to be solely owner operated on a long range cruise. Maintenance and cosmetics plus the need for at least dual watch on continous operation on long crossings it requires a minimum of two additional able crew besides a licenced owner. With its professional galley, full size laundry, large cabins, good crew space and ample overall living space it makes also a true live aboard.

There are some very nice examples on the european second hand market available with owners that are motivated to sell.

Cheers

P.S. I am not in any way connected to Horizon or Drettmann or a dealer. I just like that boat very much. I will by one, if I stepp down one day.

Now for the rest of the story…

Thanks to all who responded to Carl's question of "What Defines an Expedition Yacht?" As Carl mentioned, the question came up in regard to the review of the Horizon EP69. Why the question? Horizon built a beautiful yacht, a new model offering, with lots of outstanding features so Carl selected it for a review. Because he only publishes a few reviews each year, a boat needs to meet a lot of criteria for coverage. It's a full displacement vessel so Carl calls upon his resident trawler expert for the write-up.

Side Bar: the YF format is to (1) make sure it is a builder we want to highlight and (2) take a walk-through to assure that we can review the yacht in a positive light. Many vessels don't pass this primary litmus test. Once it is agreed that the yacht will be reviewed, the Builder understands that if there are negatives, they will be pointed out and that the review is an objective assessment by industry veterans, not a PR piece by another magazine. The builder has the option of opting out and many have. The YF Review template is to research the builder history, interview the principals/managers/architects or whomever is appropriate, go through the vessel with the builder or builder's representatives, spend time independently learning the systems and details, sea trial, and photos. Carl sends the selected photos and the review is written in the YF review format. From my perspective, Carl gives free rein to whatever I want to write. My only constraints are to have the written copy describe the photos he selects and in the template order. After I send Carl my review, he puts on his final editing touches, including the "Detail" section and does his best to make me and other YF editors look good.

Back to the EP69. It was during step # 2, the walk-through, that the issue of terminology and definitions came up. The Builder made it very clear that the boat was not targeted to the "trawler" clientele. They were looking for a more "upscale" identification so it was requested that the term trawler not be used. Yet, it was obvious to both me and Carl that our definition of Expedition yacht differed from the Builder's. In the end, I think the review did a fair job of accommodating the Builder's preferences while providing an honest assessment of the review vessel.

If "trawler" was the big word to avoid on the walkthrough, I discovered another one during the interview phase. Of course I had known that the forerunner to the EP69 was Bandido, so I asked what changed from Bandido to EP. The answer I was given by the Builder and Builder Rep was that the name had not been a successful choice and, therefore, they changed the model name from Bandido to EP. I asked about more Bandido history so I could include it and I was told that they had spent a lot of money re-branding the name and their preference was to not make reference to the Bandido series.

Carl and I had lengthy discussion of whether to proceed, but we both liked the yacht so much that we decided that I could abide by the two Builder requests and I worked around using the term "trawler" and the former "name" Bandido. (Btw, this was the first time that I have had a Builder make any requests or express preferences for the review.) I took the Bandido issue at face value and had no problems not using the former name. Of course it is the combined knowledge of YF members that would bring to light the Bandido history of which I had obviously not been made fully aware (thank you HTM09).

Horizon's focus should be pride in their well-built, sturdy, multi-functional luxury yacht and less attention to classification which is why I referred to it as a "class all its own." The bottom line is what I wrote in the review introduction and in the final summary:

Judy Waldman

I think a proper term or description for the boat would be "full displacement motoryacht."

Review EP 69

My post did not include any critisism on the review or the boat itself. Horizon Yachts was caught by surprice by the bankrupty of Drettmann on the other side of the globe and did a great job in clearing up the mess as far as legal and contractual plus logistic issues are concerned. Can you imagine, a brand new boat sitting in a harbour in Europe, where the boat still belongs to the yard and the build in equipment like engines, generators, electronics and galley hardware are part of the insolvence assets and captured by the liquidator. Thats what I call a mess! The next problem was the complete breakdown of dealership and support in Europe, the market was gone.

But Horizon solved all this problems and is back on the European market. The quality of the boats are as good or even better as before. Horizon Yachts are (like You mentioned) high quality, sturdy and practical boats. If You see a specific layout, special interior design or type of equipment which can be questioned, somebody (customer ?) must have asked for it.

The key on buying a boat in far east is the supervision of the build in the yard by a good dealership or an professional owner representative. The second point is the perfect logistics and timing for the owner supplied items going to the yard. The only problem in Taiwan is (by law), the money (down payments) of foreigners can not be protected by bank guarantees.

But all this can be done and solved, as being perfectly proven by Drettmann or even better Nordhavn. I will buy a Horizon yacht, whenever I go back to a smaller boat.

Cheers

I have no horse in this race and can't really see any issue as to why Horizon couldn't/shouldn't market this product as an "Expedition" yacht. There are certainly no Category Industry standards/requirements for recreational vessels that would chose to label their vessel as such.
If they are willing to work on fuel capacity/arrangements/storage for the discerning buyer why hesitate on just a label / model name - seems kind of petty to me? I don't see any connection to leading a customer astray, I bet you a customer who will purchase a vessel for his own expectations as an "Expedition" yacht has a list of requirements many pages long anyways, not exactly a novice buyer.
You get 10 people in a room to discuss what defines an "Expedition" yacht under 100' and you'll get 10 different answers. Is an expedition 1 week / 1 month / 2 months / 3 months and so on???
On face value, I don't see "trawler" at all for their product and "Expedition" is a big enough catch-all term to allow them an opportunity for success in a somewhat crowded playing field.
It seems to me their marketing team is dialed into the current industry conditions, if the quality is there to back-up the design, more power to them!

Yes, lots of them. Many fail in the dry storage and cold storage area's. Toy carrying capacity

I must say another important criteria that defines an expedition yacht is that it must be able to carry several different toys on deck for it's expedition. Such as a 25'+ center console, a 20' RIB, and several motorcycles/scooters/small car or a golf cart.....Because you sure as heck aren't towing a 25'+ center console across a large ocean in 20'+ seas.......And a large crane both for launching any toy, and also for lifting large things on deck, including it's own propellor(s). Toys can vary somewhat depending on it's stomping ground and mission. But this is where many of the full displacement motoryachts fail....... At under 100', an 80' Northern Marine will carry these toys, and I think the Nordhavn 80' will also.......

Well CaptJ, can you name the many (or few) of them while you are at it? I haven't seen a boat that couldn't have cold or dry storage improved, so I wouldn't consider it a show stopper. How many 80' carry a 25' CC? I think you are talking about something more in the 90' - 100' range. Get specific otherwise it just seems like a bunch of B.S.........

Are you sure?

RENA - Vessel's Details and Current Position - 1001489 - 538070323

I just did. Both the Northern Marine 80' and the Nordhavn 86' are capable of carrying a 25' CC as well as a 20' inflatable. The Northern Marine, there is space for a 25' CC, a 20' Nautica and scooters or motorcycles, that I know for sure because it had it (not a CC but a 24' v-hull boat which is shown in the ad) and the 76' I used to run briefly, when the factory took it back on trade(the one in the picture in the banner here). Then I was involved with the current owner as well, but the boat then went to the Med 2 years ago on it's own bottom. The white one with green striping.

Welcome to Nordhavn.com - Power Thats Oceans Apart
NORTHERN MARINE | 80 RAISED PILOT HOUSE LRC

Look at what's on the deck of those boats in the pictures on the manufacturers websites.

In addition to cold storage you need dry storage of food AND parts for the journey.

Over a decade ago I worked on a 97' full displacement MY similar to an old Feadship that was built in the 70's. It had a steel hull, 8 1/2' of draft, was built very stout, gardener diesels, canoe stern, and 6,000 gallons of fuel. It's range was 4,000 NM at 10 knots. It crossed the Atlantic on it's own bottom. An expedition yacht, it was NOT. It barely had enough cold storage for 2 weeks for 8-10 people and not really anywhere logical or room to put more freezers or refrigerators unless you were going to convert a stateroom to parts/food storage. It also, couldn't accomodate more than a 15' whaler on the top deck and a few scooters due to FB layout. She's still running around today and looks just as good.