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Low power on a Carver diesel 355 ACMY

Discussion in 'Carver Yacht' started by timjet, Jan 11, 2013.

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  1. timjet

    timjet Member

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    I’ve been trying to troubleshoot a low power problem with my ’98 Carver 355 ACMY powered by twin Cummins diesels. I’m not able to get rated WOT rpm which is suppose to be 2950 rpm and I've done just about everything with the engines to rectify this. I’m now focusing on the props.

    I would like to hear from anyone who has a diesel powered 355/356 and find out what your WOT rpm is and what props you have. As a reference my props are 23X 26 and were reduced from 23 X 27 after I purchased the boat.

    Tim
  2. bstet

    bstet New Member

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    Which model Cummins? What rpm are you able to get?
    Brian
  3. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Is rpm confirmed by independent tachometer?

    IS bottom clean?

    Are air filters clean?

    Is air getting to engine room?

    Are engines smoking under load?

    What rpm can you obtain?

    Another dozen or so questions await ...
  4. timjet

    timjet Member

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    Thanks guys. The engines are Cummins 330 6B TA M3's which I believe is the only diesel engine carver put in these boats.

    To answer Marmots questions:

    Is rpm confirmed by independent tachometer? At survey 2 years ago the tach's were +- 50 rpm. I was getting 2700 rpm at that time.

    IS bottom clean? On a regular basis. Last was mid December

    Are air filters clean? I replaced the airsep CCV system with Seaboard Marine's envirovent system which included new air filters. That was also 2 years ago. I haven't cleaned them in the 250 hrs they've been on the boat, but after the install I was getting 2700 rpm.

    Is air getting to engine room? I'm not sure how to measure air flow to the engine room but when the blowers are on they suck all the air conditioning out of the boat. The blowers are on when the engines are on.

    Are engines smoking under load? Not much, but do produce white smoke when first started and does disparate but not completely disappear at rpm.

    What rpm can you obtain? 2700 on both engines. Almost exactly and exactly the same on both engines leading me to believe the low power is external to the engines. ie props

    Another dozen or so questions await ...

    Other information:
    A fuel pressure gauge on the port pump confirms good fuel pressure to the engine. 30-35 psi at 2000 rpm.

    Both after coolers have been properly serviced and have 3 hours on them.
    They were previously serviced when I bought the boat.

    Both exhaust sides of the turbos have been checked, no corrosion noted.
  5. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    This is close to another thread;
    What is your unloaded wot? How much s#$% (extra weight) is on board? ie; RIB, extra loaded freezer, new tile floors and solid counters? Tools & spare engines?
    I'm sorry to be blunt, We all here try to be helpful, Some times a boat comes in with these same questions and later we learn the boot was raised because of the added s#$%.
    Comparing same power/model is important and hopefully somebody can come back with their data.
    Accurate tach's are important. The question on exhaust color is important also. Has anybody really watched the exhaust during a slow raise to wot? White, black, and steam mean different things.
  6. K1W1

    K1W1 Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Did your boat suddenly lose the ability to reach WOT under load or was it gradual?

    If sudden think back to sonething that was done just before this happenned.

    If gradual it might be reacted to your air filters being un cleaned for 2 yrs, a small exhaust leak can choke them up pretty quickly.

    What RPM can you achieve now ?
  7. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

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    I had lost power on a boat once, not getting WOT and slight vibration.
    No other real significant warning signs, like smoke or anything like that.

    after checking everything inside the boat I went under the boat to take a look and it turned out that there was about 100 feet of crab pot line on one of the wheels.

    I don't recall seeing if the OP did a NO-LOAD test.
    A no-load test will give you a good indication that the engine is operating properly and your issues are not the engines.


    btw, my current boat has cutters.
  8. timjet

    timjet Member

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    Thanks guys. Actually I've had two problems with power and at first I thought they were related. The first problem was a decay in power problem that I thought was caused by "bad" fuel when I bought the boat. However since purchase, I've run several tanks of fuel through the engines and the tanks have been cleaned twice. Vacuum gauges seem to confirm the contaminated fuel issue but the filters were always clean. I changed them anyway until Tony Athens on boatdiesel.com after seeing pictures of the filters told me to quit wasting my money on filters, they were not the problem. But I still had high vacuum readings. I installed a diagnostic fuel pressure gauge on the port engine and have been monitoring it for the last couple of hours. So far I've had good fuel pressure which would eliminate a fuel contamination issue causing a lack of fuel to the engines. Fuel vents are all OK, they've been checked. I have not had a rpm decay issue since I installed the fuel pressure gauge, but will be monitoring this closely, along with the vacuum gauge.

    Last summer on my way over to the Bahamas the starboard engine started to decay from my normal cruise rpm of 2300. I shut down the engine, changed the racor filter and switched tanks from the aux tank to the right main tank. The engine started right up and I went back to 2300 rpm. 20 minutes later the same thing happen to the port engine however this time I did not change the filter but changed the feed from the aux to the left main tank. The engine powered right back up to 2300 rpm. However this same decay issue has happened when I was feeding from the main tanks and happened later on this same trip. This was all last summer. We were out a couple of weeks ago feeding from the aux tank that was about half full and had no decay issues at all. The decay issue is very frustrating because as you can see it is inconsistent.

    The second problem is the engines not reaching rated WOT rpm. I've gotten 2700 rpm the last few hours or so at WOT. I've done all the checks Tony Athens has recommended on his web site and nothing seems to be at fault.
    I get 3200 rpm WOT in neutral.
    I've never noticed any black smoke, just gray that disapates but never goes completely away after the engine warms up.
    It's possible I'm over loaded but won't really know until I hear from someone else who has data on this particular Carver. The prop calculator on boatdiesel.com recommends 23x26 props and that is what I have at a displacement of 24000 lbs. We were out the other day with 200 gallons of fuel and 45 gallons of water. An inflatable dinghy on the swim platform and unusual for us, only a couple of cans of beer along with the normal assortment of stuff. Boat powers up easily to 2700 rpm then no more. Plenty of fuel pressure and right now about 3" of vacuum.
  9. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    A diver has been over and hull, gear clear?
  10. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    It is beginning to sound like a small air leak into the fuel suction side might be involved.
  11. timjet

    timjet Member

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    How would I determine that?
  12. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Disconnect the line into the lift pump and apply a vacuum. Work back. If you put a short stiff piece of clear tubing at the vacuum pump inlet you may see bubbles. Tiny tiny bubbles are normal (all fuel contains entrained gases and the vacuum pulls them out) but larger bubbles indicate a leaking fitting.
  13. timjet

    timjet Member

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    Ok I'll look into that. It's just seems this issue is external to the engines because both the engines are behaving the exact same way.
    Bottom is clean, running gear is clean. The only other thing left is prop pitch.
  14. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno
    What rpm did the 23 x 27 yeild, before you replaced them with the 23 x 26?
  15. ksbguy

    ksbguy Member

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    Did you follow Tony's article?

    http://www.sbmar.com/Maintenance/PDF/Low-Power-Troubleshooting.pdf

    Do you have Boost and EGT gauges? Without that it's very difficult to trouble shoot this problem. If you're overloaded your EGTs will be higher then spec in the book. Also, no Boost, no power so you need to know how much boost you're making and at what rpm.

    Did you verify your RPM with a phototach? AETNA digitals are know to be accurate.

    Are you checking your vacuum reading at cruise and WOT? Unless you have one that marks the max attained reading you will need to check it when the boat is running.

    If you've had fuel contamination the selector valve you use to switch from aux to main tanks and vice versa might be clogged up or the pick up tubes in tanks could be filled with gunk.

    The best way to troubleshoot fuel restriction is to install a vacuum gauge inline as close to the fuel tank as possible and then move it along the fuel system towards the injection pump. If you get a big restriction near the tank your problem is in the pickup tube. If not, go past the selector valve, if you get it there it's the valve. At the racor, rebuild the racor, etc... Racors normally have to be rebuilt after contamination, lots of gunk will accumulate by the check ball. You could also be ingesting air through the lid or drain plug - any air bubbles in there? If you have to, cut the fuel line as needed and install inline Ts with a plug so that you can have access ports down the road to put the gauge in anywhere in the fuel system for troubleshooting.

    Don't change pitch anymore until you figure out that the motors are 100%. 1" of pitch is normal but you did that and you're sill hundreds of rpm off.

    Do not run boat other than for troubleshooting because that far off WOT you will shorten it's life dramatically.
  16. timjet

    timjet Member

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    Good question. From what I can remember at survey with the 27" props I got 2700 rpm the same as I'm getting now with the 26" pitch props.
  17. ksbguy

    ksbguy Member

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    If re-pitching didn't change rpm, problem lies in motors...
  18. timjet

    timjet Member

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    Since I believe I'm dealing with two separate unrelated issues
    1. Low power
    2. Inconsistent rpm decay

    I think I will leave the fuel pressure gauge attached to the engine (it's currently attached to an out plug on the secondary fuel filter head) and monitor it when I get rpm decay. If I get decay and the pressure is low, I know fuel is not getting to the engine in sufficient pressure or volume. Incidently, last weekend I got from 25 to 35 psi fuel pressure at rpm's from 1000 to 2500. Much higher than Tony said was the minimum. But again as I mentioned the rpm decay is an inconsistent problem. It will be monitored.

    Perhaps installing an EGT gauge will give me a heads up if the engines are overloaded.
  19. ksbguy

    ksbguy Member

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    I feel your frustration. Also install a boost gauge so you can see what pressure the turbos are putting out. What does the exhaust side of the turbos look like? If salt water has been getting in there you would see decreased boost.

    I'm not sure but I think you can have fuel pressure but insufficient volume so might need to check pressure and vacuum together at cruise and WOT. Do you have tell tale type vacuum gauges?

    Have you tried plumbing the injection pump directly into a separate portable fuel tank with fresh fuel? That would eliminate any doubts in fuel system.

    Do you know if any water or contamination has ever made it to injectors/pump? After fuel system and boost are ruled out that might be another thing to look at. I think you would have white smoke if water went through the injection system...
  20. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno
    Did anyone comment about the low rpms during the survey?

    Call me crazy; but that would have been a good time to question the 2700 rpm situation.