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Why did the Bounty sink?

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by Don Novello, Nov 3, 2012.

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  1. Ormond Bert54

    Ormond Bert54 Senior Member

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    Here's a photo of the Bounty we took this summer at Belfast Harbor, Maine where we boarded for a donation and took a look around. The ship was extraordinarily beautiful from the outside especially.

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  2. Berean

    Berean Senior Member

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    Back in the seventies when I was a kid, the Bounty was docked at the St Pete Municipal Marina. I wonder if this was the same boat?
  3. karo1776

    karo1776 Senior Member

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    I think you are right... remember seeing it there and wondering what it was about.
  4. colintraveller

    colintraveller Senior Member

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    The Bounty sank because the Captain under estimated the Power of the Sea ..

    And failed to put the lives of the Crew first before a Ship . If it never set sail the Capt and the crew member would still be alive still .
  5. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    He made a reasonable judgement call, although not the one I'd have made. Having done Hatteras once in a gale I'd never consider it with the Chesapeake offering a safe harbor. Such is the job of a captain. Hero if successful, dead or ruined if not.
    I have a beautiful picture of the Bounty on my livingroom wall. She was aground off of Greenport, NY (her home port) with her sails full. I'll miss seeing her. Too few of the old girls around.
  6. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    No, he did not.

    A successful captain will remain unknown to the rest of the world for his entire career.

    Please don't trivialize the actions of an incompetent and self-delusioned narcissist by comparing his actions to those of a professional mariner.
  7. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    I suggest you Google: Captain Robin Walbridge. He was a 1600GT Master with extensive sailing, teaching and tall ship experience, who worked his way up. He knew his ship better than anybody. While I absolutely don't agree with his decision to round Hatteras when facing a hurricane, whether a ship of that type is safer in port or out at sea is a judgement call. He, the owner and crew agreed with it. He made the wrong call and paid for it with his life and that of a crew member. To call him, after his death, "an incompetent and self-delusioned narcissist" is absolutely disgusting. I pray his family never reads that and that nobody writes such about you after you're no longer able to defend yourself.
  8. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    He was what we call "one ship stupid." He spent his entire career on the Bounty, never had to answer to anyone for the last 17 years, and unfortunately for that poor novice crewmember, had convinced the "crew" that he was the saltiest thing since Magellan. He also convinced himself that he knew what he was doing and that innocent girl's family is now paying for his arrogance and incompetence.

    You must be the only person left aside from a handful of tallships apologists who still defends his negligence.

    By the way, the Eagle stayed in New London and didn't kill anyone or sink at the dock. Even if it had sunk it wouldn't have killed anyone. The man was a dangerous fool, his "crew" just didn't know any better.
  9. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    No he didn't. He worked on the HMS Rose and the U.S. Brig Niagara as well as many other smaller vessels. And in case you didn't realize it, a ship like the Bounty is not the type of vessel that changes captains every other month. It's a lifetime career when you land a gig like that. He sailed that vessel for 17 years, with mostly novice crew, without major incident. You really do need to check this man's background before defaming him. You're making an ass of yourself. I don't respect most sailboaters, but any tall ship captain has my ultimate respect.
  10. Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Stating the facts of his history and actions is hardly defamation. His incompetence and arrogance killed an innocent woman. There was never any reason for that ship to leave New London aside from one single man's ego.

    That man will always be defined by the outcome of his actions. His own public statements will forever describe his attitude toward his crew and his ignorance of the sea and his own capabilities.

    He was a fool, and finally proving it cost the life of an innocent woman who was in no position to know better than to follow him. It is absurd to use his "crew's" blind adoration and willingness to follow him to destruction to support your own belief that his decision to leave a safe haven was anything other than ignorance, arrogance, and incompetence based on a career as a nautical thespian.

    Bounty was a carnival sideshow manned by dreamers and led by a man who believed his own publicity.

    Listen to his on camera interviews, read where his wife admitted he enjoyed "chasing countless hurricanes." He was a self drawn caricature of a seaman. If he had any concern for his "crew" he would have thrown a hurricane party for them in New London and departed after the storm had passed.
  11. NYCAP123

    NYCAP123 Senior Member

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    Capt. Walbridge erred in his judgement. It cost him his life, the life of a crewmember and his ship. It was not however the sum of his life. I will not partake further defending a dead man who needs no defense from those who try to make themselves seem important by defaming those who aren't here to defend themselves. Instead here is his biography. Let all who read it decide for themselves.

    Biography - Captain Robin Walbridge

    According to Captain Robin Walbridge, Bounty has no boundaries. As her captain, he is well known for his ability and desire to take Bounty to places that no ship has gone before. Captain Walbridge's philosophy is that all people of all ages should have the chance to see the great ships from the Golden Age of Sail - ships that have changed the course of history, made and destroyed nations, and have had an impact on us as a people and culture today.

    Captain Walbridge is a quiet, self-effacing individual; yet, when you stop to consider all he has done in its entirety, collectively, it and he are pretty amazing. If you spend any time with him, you will realize that his loves are obvious: life, youth, the sea and HMS Bounty. He does not have children of his own, but has all the patience in the world when it comes to kids.

    Robin entered the world of tall ships through the back door. Raised in St. Petersburg, Florida, he obtained his first raw boating experience when he borrowed a sailboat at age 18 and it proved to be a defining moment. By the time he owned a 38' schooner in his mid-twenties - the sea - any sea- was firmly in his blood. At 28, he secured his 50-ton license while working on the Miller houseboats on the Suwanee River in Florida where he was the field mechanic for five years. When not on the houseboats, he taught adult education and basic navigation to fishing and boat guides.

    He went on to work on the Governor Stone in Apalachicola, Florida as Captain, conducting day sail programs, and crew training programs for the operation of the vessel. It was here he earned his 100-ton license.

    Robin admits to sailing on the best and with the best when it comes to sail training education for youth. He became hooked on kids working with adjudicated youth as Captain for Vision Quest and the Bill of Rights. While on board the Bill of Rights, he worked on programs taking "hard-core" youth on-board from three months to 18 months. In 1993, he worked on Boy Scout programs on the Heritage of Miami. He developed sail training programs to take scouts on one-week voyages in the Florida Keys, including programs for children with disabilities. In his off-seasons, from 1993 – 2000, he was on-call as mate or engineer for Sea Education Association's (SEA) two vessels, Westwood and Corwith Cramer. Robin also spent some time on the 198' U.S. Brig Niagara of Erie, Pennsylvania, which only enhanced his fascination for square-rigged sailing.

    Robin moved on to HMS Rose in 1993 as First and Second mate and went on to obtain his 500-ton Captain's license. He continued to work with youth sail training programs, developing programs for trainees along the eastern seaboard and Great Lakes. In 1995, he obtained his 1600-ton license.

    Enter HMS Bounty in 1995. It was a labor of love from the beginning, and Robin has never looked back. Keeping her afloat has been a full-time occupation for many years. If it weren't for Robin's efforts, the ship would have sunk at the dock in Fall River, Massachusetts. During these financially difficult years, Robin organized programs with a local orphanage taking four to six young adults on as part of his crew. He also worked with an Ohio-based alternative school to give children an opportunity to find their love of the sea in a new environment.

    The highlight of his career, however, is the two years and over 15 voyages spent training the crew of "Old Ironsides," the U.S.S. Constitution. He was at the helm as guest Captain/Advisor for the ship's inaugural sail in 1997 after 116 years of being dormant, a moment he remembers as "awe-inspiring," as many in his position would.

    Under different owners, scores of crew, coast-wise port appearances along the East coast, Great Lakes and Europe, and extensive movie making, Robin continues to present Bounty to hundreds of thousands of fans. To Robin, Bounty is an extension of himself. Once a movie prop, built as an ocean-going vessel, she is a living classroom for the scores of children who have crossed her decks, and slept in her cabins.

    When Bounty was in Boothbay Harbor Shipyard in Boothbay Harbor, Maine, finalizing her third phase of a total renovation, Robin oversaw in its entirety all phases of the restoration, with the ultimate goal of obtaining an SSV license. Now 50 years old, Bounty has lived many lives. If up to Captain Robin Walbridge, she will continue to thrill many, for many years to come.

    It is people like Captain Robin Walbridge who keep the thrill of sail training and the art of square-rigged sailing alive. He has a life-time of effort and passion to show for it.

    Captain Walbridge has studied naval architecture under David Wyman, former professor of the Maine Maritime Academy. When not under sail, rare in itself, Captain Walbridge loves building experimental kayaks. He has a commercial pilots license, loves photography and is an avid chess player, and one day, will live in Costa Rica.
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Where is this bio from? The bounty web site?

    Here is an interesting take about the accident:

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    BAD JUDGEMENT, FAULTY REASONING, THE WILLFULLY RECKLESS APPROACH OF SAILING VESSEL HMS BOUNTY WITH HURRICANE SANDY


    by Jan Cameron Miles on Saturday, 1 December 2012 at 16:04 ·

    December 1, 2012


    AN OPEN LETTER

    Dear Robin,

    It has been a month now since the USCG stopped looking for you. Claudene is dead and BOUNTY, like you, is lost at sea as a result of your decision to sail directly towards Hurricane Sandy. Your action reminds me of the movie “Hunt for Red October”. I am thinking of that captain of the submarine hunting the other submarine. The captain on the hunt for the fleeing sub threw all caution away in his hunting effort. Why did you throw all caution away by navigating for a close pass of Hurricane Sandy? I was so surprised to discover that BOUNTY was at sea near Cape Hatteras and close to Hurricane Sandy Sunday night October 28th! That decision of yours was reckless in the extreme!



    The outcome of your action makes you the only captain of the current crop of long experienced American maritime licensed sailing vessel masters’ actually willing to voyage anywhere near a hurricane! Did you not remember the fate of the FANTOME? Like BOUNTY she was a slow, less than 10 knot capable vessel under engine power. Not fast enough to run out of range of the reach of Hurricane Mitch. Additionally the master of FANTOME had too much confidence in hurricane forecasting accuracy. Mitch made an unexpected left turn after consistent movement westward before slowing down to near stopped about the time FANTOME made her run eastward from Belize trying to escape Mitch. A stationary hurricane is nearly impossible to predict future motion. To the best of anyone’s knowledge (FANTOME was lost with all hands) Mitch ran right over her. You, on the other hand, maneuvered directly toward a very accurately forecast and steadily moving Hurricane Sandy with a slow moving vessel of wood construction, FANTOME was of metal. Also, BOUNTY is quite a bit smaller than FANTOME. Still you aimed all but directly at Sandy. That was reckless my friend! Was it wise or prudent to set off into the teeth of Sandy in BOUNTY? Did it make any sense at all? Virtually all of your professional friends and colleagues back here do not think so, not at all.



    You told everyone you were going east around Sandy. But you did not even try to do so. Your track line indicates unequivocally a trail all but directly toward Sandy. When I heard east around was the strategy I immediately wondered about it. I am not the only one to know that BOUNTY is not highly powered with her engines. You yourself are publicly recorded as saying BOUNTY is under powered. Looking at weather conditions east of Long Island for Friday October 26 it is clear there were northeast winds. They were not strong winds...near 5-10 knots at the buoy 50 miles SE of Nantucket with a slight sea of between 1-2 feet. But windage of any sailing vessel under auxiliary power is significant. A full-rigged ship has a whole lot more windage. 5 knots of boat speed into 10 knots of wind means a lot of drag slowing BOUNTY down...maybe with the underpowered engines BOUNTY could barely reach 5 knots of boat speed? Saturday Oct. 27 at the buoy wind had increased to around 15 knots NExE and sea had increased to around 3-4 feet. With staysails set and motor-sailing what would BOUNTY have been steering? Maybe something south of true East? What kind of speed would BOUNTY have made? On Sunday Oct. 28 wind had jumped to 30-35 knots NExE and the sea was up around 12 feet and building. Considering those big bluff bows of BOUNTY and massive windage in her rigging you probably decided to abandon the "go east around Sandy" strategy long before even trying it out because of the increasingly slow progress BOUNTY would eventually be making with ever increasing winds and swell from the northeast plus the knowledge the wind would eventually veer to east and on toward southeast as Sandy moved north forcing BOUNTY to turn southward and even southwestward and that would be back toward Sandy. You may also have still been doubtful of Sandy actually turning NW. Considering Sandy did go toward land rather than toward sea, had you tried to go eastward as you originally intended with any kind of will, BOUNTY might have wound up pretty far away from Sandy’s center, but the storm was so big you might actually have met conditions somewhat similar to what you actually met by heading straight toward Sandy. Having to abandon BOUNTY well out to the eastward would likely have been at a location somewhat further away from rescue assets than you actually were. So, ironically, it may actually have been fortunate for your crew that you did not try to go eastward.



    An even more distressing puzzle is brought forth by BOUNTY’s steady movement directly at Sandy after you had abandoned your original notion of going east around. Friday Oct. 26 forecasting confirmed an even higher confidence Hurricane Sandy would turn left after some more time going north. But BOUNTY continued straight southward! Why did you not turn for New York Harbor? The light northeast flow I describe above was occurring all the way down past the mouth of the Delaware Bay. You could have gone way up the Hudson River. With the NE’rly wind behind BOUNTY is it likely speed might have been more than 5 knots on her way to New York? Alternatively, by my calculation, at 5 knots BOUNTY could have diverted toward Delaware Bay and gone up that bay and through the C & D Canal by late Saturday night. Wind in the Upper Chesapeake Bay Saturday night was light and variable with a forecast to increase from the NE overnight into Sunday before backing toward the north and continuing to increase overnight Sunday into Monday. At midnight Saturday northeast wind strength in Baltimore Harbor was actually 10 knots. Late Sunday wind had backed to north and increased to near 20 knots. If BOUNTY were in the Inner Harbor of Baltimore by early Sunday she would have been sheltered from wind by all of those tall city buildings that ring the north side of the Inner Harbor. There would have been no sea action. Harbor water levels did indeed increase above normal, but only by 3-4 feet. BOUNTY would not have floated over any dock. Even if she had, the damage would unlikely be the loss of the ship and certainly not the loss of any life!



    So what was it you were thinking by not diverting toward shelter once you knew about the confirmed forecasting that not only continued to indicate Sandy going ashore in New Jersey but also Sandy would likely be the largest hurricane in some time? No slow boat was going to be speedy enough to get out of Sandy’s long reach from where BOUNTY was on Friday. Certainly resurrecting the "east around" strategy would be impossible now that the distance to Sandy had reduced bringing with the reduced distance soon to increase NE’rly winds, soon to start a steady veer through East. But a slow boat would have had time to get inshore from where BOUNTY was on Friday before Sandy’s strength was felt. Why did you persist in steering BOUNTY directly toward Sandy? Was it confidence in her physical strength after all of the rebuilding over the last several years? If that was the case, that is recklessly cavalier to the extreme! Not even the big powerful tug and barge combinations that regularly ply the East Coast were fooling around with facing Sandy! But you were. I find myself wondering again…What were you thinking?



    On top of this, you told folks during the south bound journey directly toward Sandy that it was safer to be at sea. Hmmm...an interesting & vague notion that. It is true the US Navy in Norfolk goes to sea ahead of an approaching hurricane. But they are high endurance (high speed) ships with mariners trained and contracted to go in the way of danger, not young keen professionals & volunteers on an harbor attractions’ vessel!



    I understand there might be two reasons for sending a navy fleet out. One is their wind resistance at the dock…and probably also concern for extra high water from storm surge. That wind resistance could play great havoc keeping the ships tied to the dock. Maybe wreck the pier by the pressure against the dock. Extra high water causes all kinds of concerns. The other reason is our nation’s security. A navy bottled up in port for a hurricane is not a navy able to provide for national defense. Meanwhile those navy ships have a lot of speed they are capable of. And they do not hang around at sea in the path of a hurricane. They keep going out to sea to get away from the rough seas that will be created by the approaching hurricane. Making 20 knots means they could be 480 nautical miles to the eastward in 24 hours. Something not possible with a smaller slow boat that departed closely ahead of Sandy with the idea of protecting itself from dock damage on the premise it would be safer instead to experience big seas as well big winds creating them. Now that is just plain illogical thinking! With a choice between suffering strong wind by being inshore while avoiding big seas verses being at sea with both big seas and strong winds you should have diverted Friday as soon as you got the updated weather forecasting confirming Sandy was going ashore in New Jersey.



    Yeah, you were a reckless man Robin. I would not have continued to proceed as you did. Frankly, I do not know anyone with a lot of experience in large, slow (still faster than BOUNTY), strong, steel motor vessels like the powerful tug & barge combinations we see plying the East Coast would have considered heading toward a hurricane like you did with Sandy…not only forecast as going ashore rather than turning towards sea…but also described as a “storm of the century”. Those tug & barge operators would seek shelter inshore or not proceed to sea at all. I also do not know any sailing vessel masters that would head toward a hurricane as you did with hopes of negotiating a pass like two vessels meeting head-on. The tug & barge industry has a lot of reason to stay on schedule. Lots of money at stake with timely delivery. But it is even more money if there is significant damage from big seas. Plus, if the cargo is chemical or oil there is the cost and criminal consequences of a polluting spill. I cannot imagine there was any reason existing that would force BOUNTY to directly approach a hurricane. Loss of BOUNTY is so permanent. No more voyages after losing the ship…don’t you know!



    But the loss of life is the most tragic. You not only lost your own, you lost that of Claudene’s. Hell man, the BOUNTY can be replaced. But why ever risk loss when it is so much more important not to risk a crew member’s life? Having BOUNTY remain in port, or seek port when it became evident Sandy was not going to turn eastward as most often hurricanes do, might have meant damage to BOUNTY, but unlikely any loss of life. If you found no dock willing to accommodate BOUNTY up the Delaware or in the Chesapeake Bay, put her in the mud and hang on. Doing that would mean no reason to fear sinking completely below water. Even if she were to roll on her side while aground she would not have sunk below the surface. Maybe she would have become a total loss, but the crew could remain sheltered in her hull, assuming there was no safe way to get off of her and ashore before high winds arrived. Putting BOUNTY aground for the winds of Sandy because of no dock option would have been a bold decision! Actually, I believe your request to get to a dock would not have been turned down. However, all of the above was avoidable by not going to sea at all. Your focus should have been the same focus of all of your East Coast sailing vessel contemporaries…not go to sea…rather get tied up in as safe a place as you could find…not waste time trying to gain some distance toward your intended destination.



    Robin, for all of the experience you have, it was recklessly poor judgment to have done anything but find a heavy weather berth for your ship, rather than instead intentionally navigate directly toward Sandy with no thought given to deviate if the original plan of yours was not panning out. During the nineteen years you were master of BOUNTY you were the single reason she remained active. Under your command she went from being an aging wooden vessel with all of the typical problems age brings to a vessel, to a reviving vessel as a result of several significant re-buildings over the last several years. You were a hero in everyone's eyes. Deservedly so I will freely add!!! I so respected your even, steady persistence to celebrate what BOUNTY could be and as a result was becoming. After years of barely surviving coastal trips here in America, after significant rebuilding, you successfully managed two safe and productive European voyages. That success was surely destined for more voyages to ports thrilling throngs of public in love with BOUNTY's roll in Hollywood movies. But that future is gone now. Because you chose to do something that no one of your experience, and all those young professionals with less experience, several that sailed with you, would have done. Some might have sailed and diverted. Some might have sailed with the plan to get some distance south along the coast then duck inshore long before any real impact from Sandy would be felt. But most did not depart at all. They worked from the start locating as safe a harbor arrangement as could be figured out. Up there in Southern New England is the fine port of New Bedford with its storm dyke to protect the fishing fleet. Surely BOUNTY would have been welcomed? I cannot conjure any reason why your friends in New London would not have responded with welcome of shelter had you asked.



    CTND
    ------------
  13. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    While there are many memories I have of conversing with you about things marine affecting what we do as masters of sailing vessels, we never discussed the topic of delivering on schedule as promised and the problems of failure to arrive as promised. This is coming oh so very much too late, but I feel compelled to share that during my many years as master of vessels, there has never been any pressure put on me to make sure promises of arrival were kept. What I was told is that safety was most important. Safety of the ship was desired. But safety of the crew was most essential. As a result I have been master aboard when I have had to inform the company the intended arrival would not occur as scheduled due to weather. Sometimes the weather concern involved a hurricane. Sometimes the concern was a cold front and resultant head winds or a typical mid latitude low passing by. The decision we were going to be tardy to the destination port had to do with risk of damage to the ship. Preventing ship damage most often meant there would be little to no additional risk of injury to the crew and in the case of an inspected vessel also the passengers. Yep, unlike BOUNTY, most of the sail training vessels in America are certified and inspected for underway activities; several in the American fleet are certified for ocean service. Those that are wood built are pretty strong. Yet they avoid hurricanes. Being tardy always meant there would be another opportunity in the future. With BOUNTY now gone, with you and Claudene as well, there is no future to share with Claudene, with you, with BOUNTY, for all of us…for everyone.



    If confidence was the basis in your decisions, no ship is invulnerable. And in a career at sea one cannot avoid every gale or nasty storm – but you set out with the BOUNTY with whatever her strengths and weaknesses into the biggest one some of us have ever seen dominating the Western North Atlantic. Many stronger, faster ships than BOUNTY chose to stay in port for this one. What was your need?



    Well my very recklessly cavalier friend. I cannot say I told you so. But I sure can say I am surprised! Not Robin! This stunt is so amateurish as to be off the scale! But stunning surprise of surprises! It is Robin! Heading directly at a hurricane in a small, slow boat. Instead of running and hiding...or not venturing out at all. You have provided everyone with a great deal of hurt and sadness and consternation as well a firestorm of gossip nearly full of blame and foolishness directed at the whole of our sailing community.



    That is an inestimably be-****ed legacy my friend.

    Signed

    Jan C. Miles
  14. Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno

    Actions speak louder than words.
  15. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Been trying to find a polite way of throwing a gentleman's raspberry to NYCAP123. I just could not find a way.
    NYCAP123 please don't get upset with me but,,

    Ice broken,

    Walbridge screwed up. He was a followed like a saint right to the moment he screwed up and risked a crew and ship. He murdered a crew member and himself and lost his belove boat.

    I'm not a shrink, psych and never been called smart AND I was not there.
    But I do have some reasoning ability.
    Walbridge had an impressive history. Doctors, preachers and sheep herders have had similar results getting others to follow. This time, 14 survived.
  16. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Does anybody remember who Captain Christopher Smith was? Or his previous deeds (lots & lots), If you do, You understand (maybe)..
  17. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Weather Channel has a special on rescue, airing now and again at 11pm
  18. lwrandall

    lwrandall senior member

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    Just in case you missed the Weather Channel Bounty special here are the other viewing times taken from the Weather Channel website. Times are Eastern

    4:00 pm to 5:00 pm, Friday - Friday
    9:00 pm to 10:00 pm, Sunday - Sunday
    12:00 am to 1:00 am, Sunday - Sunday
    3:00 am to 4:00 am, Sunday - Sunday
  19. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Here's a pic

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  20. Blue Ghost

    Blue Ghost Member

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    The Regina systen in the Spinward Marches
    HMS Bounty sinks in storm.

    I just came across this Youtube news snippet. It seems the vessel built for the 1962 version of "Mutiny on the Bounty" with Marlon Brando, Trevor Howard, Richard Harris, sank this last Octorber off the Carolina coast.

    Link; The Sinking Of The HMS Bounty - YouTube

    Does anybody have any thoughts on this?
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