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Towing vs Davit.....

Discussion in 'Carver Yacht' started by hopper5, Dec 2, 2012.

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  1. hopper5

    hopper5 Member

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    In the spirit of trying to get my bow down at cruise speeds ....12kts or so ....on my Carver440, I am contemplating towing our tender ( 11' rib with center console and 20 hp Honda )....instead of leaving it on the Davit. This would certainly reduce the weight on the swim platform and hopefully help with my trim issues....Has anyone tried both ways and if so with what results?? Thanks.
  2. RER

    RER Senior Member

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    Reducing weight at the transom might help, but 12 knots is not enough speed to get your 440 out of the hole. I expect it would take +15 knots and probably all your trim tab to get that boat on plane and bring the bow down.
  3. RB480

    RB480 Senior Member

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    Your 440 should be cruising quite a bit faster than 12 knots.

    Cruise speed on several that I am familiar it's is anywhere from 17-25 depending on engine options as long as it isn't gas.
  4. hopper5

    hopper5 Member

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    440 speed

    I have cat 3116t. 300 hp .....max rpm is 2800 rpm...... Cruise at 2400 rpm is giving me 12kts fully loaded.....a friend has an older 4208 and his speeds are similar .....I would love to see more speed and get the bow down.....what's up ?
  5. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    12 kts is just about the worst possible speed for a boat that size... You're nowhere near being on plane and are just pushing a big wave. Throttle back to 9kts and you will cut fuel burn by 3, along with noise and engine wear

    Is the bottom clean? Especially the running gear... Are the props correctly sized? Are your tabs working and fully down?
  6. hopper5

    hopper5 Member

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    Trim....

    I had the trim tabs checked by a diver last week....They were both moving up and down....the divers comment was that the cylinder is about 9" long and the piston exposed was about 4. 1/2. "....so I assume they are extended as they should. I'm going to try taking the tender off the swim step and lighten
    The load a bit ....the previous owners remodel added a lot of weight ....tile , granite, etc .....
  7. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Run the boat without the dinghy and tell us what it does at cruise. If it gets up and runs on plane, your best bet would be to put larger trim tabs, or if that's not possible. Either put spacer blocks between the rams and the tab to get a few inches more travel. If the boat doesn't get on plane and run considerably faster, I would slow down to 9-10 knots and run it that way.

    I wouldn't try to tow an inflatable, especially that size. They track horribly and usually do not tow very well.
  8. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    This is not your Grandpas Chevrolet; Like a gas engine, WOT / rpm / max speed was the only deal. You have a real strong diesel there that will always run 2600 rpm (28 may be high), it's called a govenor... Has a real Cat guy been on board to do a No-load / load engine check? Do you have a spare set of wheels with maybe a bit more pitch?
    Remodeling weight, dink on her a** and dirty bottom could be holding you up. At WOT, you should NOT need tabs but for a lil port/stb list trim. Just remember what tabs do, create drag and redirect water flow, maybe called lift but it's not without a cost (drag).

    Make sure the mains are running & loaded correctly.

    600 hp on a 44 foot (fat) rig should turn way more that 14.
  9. hopper5

    hopper5 Member

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    Diesel check

    I did have a Cat guy run through the motors and under a load they ran 2800 rpm....just what the specs recommend. I always considered trim tabs to be for pitch as well as listing.... I'm not sure what you mean by running and checking the mains. Is it not feasable to try for more trim tab authority?? I will try to lighten the load by running half tanks of water and fuel and try it without the dinghy on the Davit .... I feel if I could Just get the bow down and more on the step the speed would jump up. I'm sure it is heavy ....I have since found out tht the previous owner moved the hull stripe up during the most recent bottom paint.....heavy Chevy. What's next ??
  10. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    If the governors are set to run at 2800 and your heavy boat runs at 2800 rpm (no load / load), you may still be under propped. If your unloaded governors run at 2850 unloaded, then 2800 loaded, then your very close. My numbers here may not be dead on, but close for example.

    I've always felt that tabs will help you get on a plane, but at WOT they should be up for best performance. I feel, you should see more that 14knts.

    I help on an old Californian 48 with tile work in all three heads, foldout couch, a ton of clothes, dink, davits, 3 fuel tanks And full of water.
    Tired ole 6-71s and she flys.

    Last thought before I crash, Do you have the factory specs on the props? Is all of the diameter still in the wheels?
  11. Beau

    Beau Senior Member

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    Hopper5

    You said that the prior owner added a lot of weight...tile, granite, etc. How much weight?? I certainly am no expert, but I would think that twin 3116's would give you more than 12 knots in that boat. I agree with the others above - leave the tender at the dock for a first test run. Also dump some water and run with a half tank of fuel. It just may be that someone overloaded the boat with improvements. Where is the waterline?
  12. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    This is simply untrue for trim tabs. On almost all yachts that I run, they run faster at cruise speed with some trim tab. Even 35 knot cruise sportfishes usually achieve best cruise speed with some trim tab. The trim tabs give the stern a lot of lift, which allows the boats usually to run faster. Slower boats such as 20 knot cruise, tend to like even more trim tab to achieve their best cruising speed.

    To the OP, I fully believe in your situation the larger trim tabs will most likely give you a lot of advantage.
  13. RB480

    RB480 Senior Member

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    I have an old Carver factory spec book that shows a 1994 Carver 440 with 350 HP 3116 Cats cruising at 19/20 Knots and getting 22/23 Knots at full throttle.

    I have run a few of this model over some time and this is my experience.

    -1993 Carver 440, Full fuel and a summers load of stuff with 300 Cummins cruises at 17 knots with a WOT run of 21 knots

    -1993 Carver 440 with 3116 Cats 350 HP, loaded up with all kinds of stuff including hard bottom dinghy and 15 hp. mercury. I was running 18 knots for a cruise at 2500 RPM and getting 2840 on the digital tachs for a WOT run at 22.5 knots

    -1995 Carver 440 with 420 HP 3126TA Cats, same as above with no dinghy. 22 knot cruise at 2500 rpm and a WOT of 25 knots at 2800 dead even. This boat was propped perfect for their load.

    -1995 Carver 440 with 450 HP Cummins, RIB on the aft deck hard top with center console, large electric davit, davit system on transom (Roskelly) and a boat load of clothes, food, knick knacks and tools. Ready for this one... 24 Knot cruise at 2400 and a 28 Knot WOT at 2650.

    I think that your 440 needs some prop work and or there is a lot of growth on the bottom. If your engines are running up to the proper RPM there has to be something else going on. The boat should simply be faster, the older gas 42s were as "fast" as your Diesel 440 is!
  14. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    Who said anything about cruise speed? I'm still working WOT at 12 knots and still making 2800 rpm.
  15. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    RB480;
    Thx for the numbers. It may help explain my point of thought also.

    ,rc
  16. jhall767

    jhall767 Senior Member

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    Sounds like something is wrong with your props. Assuming rated for your engines is 2800 and you make that on digital tachs. If not digital you can ignore the readings and check with digital. Also need no-load or high idle WOT rpm readings. Also verify transmission ratio or shaft rpm.

    Select a good prop shop to deal with. They will have a sea trial sheet for you to fill out. Speed/RPM table etc. Pull the props and send them to the shop. You are either under propped or have serious cavitation issues.

    Suggest you report findings to the knowledgeable folks on this site at that point and before making any large purchases.

    PS. Your boat may have had the props damaged at some point and cheaper (wrong) ones put on. Mine did.
  17. tommyfmu

    tommyfmu Member

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    Although I have a smaller aft cabin, I thought it beneficial to add that I run with my tabs down all the time [except for a week or more at the dock, to keep the piston shafts clean]. If after I'm on plane cruising at 18 knts and up the tabs, I fall off plane and push water normally. Tabs down, even if causing some drag, is overshadowed by superior performance by lifting the aft.
  18. Capt Ralph

    Capt Ralph Senior Member

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    On my old project BlackFin, I realized that the ole Fin was not making speed like the others were. Hull # 000 had no factory records (the mold keeper when purchased from Cary) and was no help in the original prop spec. Old Frank, suggested a new set with a few more inches of diameter. Wow, what a change. Seems thru the years, the old props kept loosing diameter on every return from the shops.
    That's why I asked about your prop spec a few ago.
  19. hopper5

    hopper5 Member

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    Thanks again

    Interesting info.........I will look for a reputable prop shop in Seattle.....any recommendations ?? and check out that angle. The current props are 23 x 24. The trim tabs are 42" x 9"...........
  20. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    Typically you need full or nearly full tabs when running at slower plane cruise speeds. It s not rocket science... Full tabs to get on plane and once at your target speed retract them a little at a time and watch your gps speed. At higher cruise speeds you will see that speed will go up as you retract them a bit as drag becomes bigger

    At hull speed you may often gain speed by retracting them. Again depends on their size but I've seen as much as a 1/4 kt gain by retracting them. Not much but that 2.5% can translate to quite a few gallons over a long trip. Obviously this is more important on larger. Boats with higher hull speeds