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A "Right Of Way" Question.....

Discussion in 'General Yachting Discussion' started by GFC, Sep 25, 2012.

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  1. GFC, Sep 25, 2012
    #1
    GFC

    GFC Senior Member

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    I realize there is no "Right Of Way" when it comes to navigation rules; it all goes down to which "vessel" is the burdened vessel and which is the stand on vessel. I also realize that vessels propelled by sail are generally considered to be the stand on vessel when interacting with a power vessel.

    That being said, I'd like to toss this video out for everyone's opinion on who is the stand on vessel and who is the burdened vessel.

    I shot the video when we were running downstream on the Columbia River in the area of The Dalles, OR. We were running on plane (~22kts) through ~3'-4' waves. There was about a 4kt current and a wind on the bow which made for good windsurfing.

    This is generally considered as one of the best windsurfing areas of the country and as frequently happens in this area, windsurfers and kit surfers try to play "chicken" with power boats as they pass through this stretch of river.

    My question to you is this: IF we had run into one of these windsurfers, who likely would have been found to have been at fault?

    Columbia River at Hood River heading downstream, Windsurfers July, 2012 - YouTube


    I'm going to grab some popcorn and a cold one and watch what follows.
  2. AMG, Sep 25, 2012
    #2
    AMG

    AMG YF Moderator

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    As one on the bridge said, use the horn. This is why you have it!
  3. RT46, Sep 25, 2012
    #3
    RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

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    wow.....

    that is more than a crossing or meeting situation......

    it is an attack by wind surfers.....
  4. Pascal, Sep 25, 2012
    #4
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    You may have Posted the wrong link, i didn't see any 3 to 4 footers.

    The ROR are pretty clear: Using your horns is not optional! This is clearly a situation were not sounding 5 blasts could come back and bite you had something happened! In doubt you MUST sound the danger signal...

    Assuming this is not a narrow channel (rule9), i can't come up with any reason not to change course to avoid the windsurfer, especially the last one. Looks like there was plenty of time and space to safely pass behind him

    The ROR are pretty clear but for them to work all parties have to follow them so that all those involve know what to expect. In this case the windsurfer was stand on, you should have given way and changed course early, signaling with one or two whistle depending on your course change

    Why is this that do many people find it to hard to press an auto pilot button!
  5. Norseman, Sep 25, 2012
    #5
    Norseman

    Norseman Senior Member

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    The powerboat should slow down before he kills somebody.
    This is not about the book, but common sense..:rolleyes:
  6. luckylg, Sep 25, 2012
    #6
    luckylg

    luckylg New Member

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    Is this a ROR question or a good seamanship question? Slow down for one. If I was called on to review the accident that's the first question I'd seek to answer: how fast was each vessel going? I agree that these don't appear to be 3-4s (I've been in 3-4's in this area and they're steep and fast; you wouldn't be holding to 22kts if they actually were 3-4's). This would interest me a lot more than the ROR questions.

    Basically, you can't do anything about them, you can only control your own actions. Slow down. In the event there were an accident you can demonstrate that you took the situation seriously and did what you could to avoid the collision. The actions in this video show the operator didn't take it seriously at all and left all of the obligations for safe navigation in the hands of the windsurfers. Dangerous choice.

    And, not knowing how to use the equipment (or its location) is the same as not having the equipment.

    This is not a narrow channel and your vessel does not require navigation in a narrow channel. If it did, you'd still be required to slow down.

    And, anyone who knows this area knows that this was not a particularly busy windsurfing day.

    The only rule that is important here are 7 & 8. The others are really only important for the accident investigators.
  7. Bill106, Sep 25, 2012
    #7
    Bill106

    Bill106 Senior Member

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    Around these parts you can almost expect to be swarmed by windsurfers, jet skis and kite boarders every time you come through the inlet in a big boat. To be honest I didn't see any serious risk of collision in the video and the larger boat appeared to already be running at a fairly slow bell, not 22 knots over water at least. The smaller much more manuverable windsurfers seemed to be in full control and aware of the larger boat and turned off well before. I doubt turning or a crash stop would have prevented a collision if they were he** bent on splatting themselves on the hull sides.

    They like to make insanely close passes across the transom to jump the largest wake and I remember one time years ago one of the charter boats here did chop the throttles only to have the jet ski smash into his transom corner when he couldn't correct in time.

    I know it's not strictly by the rules but a friendly toot of the horn just to make sure they saw you may have been called for if you didn't make eye contact. Followed up with a wave in acknowledgment to have a nice day will keep things civil.
  8. Old Phart, Sep 25, 2012
    #8
    Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno
    No one displayed an attempt to play "chicken" with powerboats.

    They gave you the right of way.

    If you had changed course (hung a left), as would have been necessary to make contact, you would have been at fault.

    My guess is that you dislike the boarders and were a little bored and thought up this little scenario in your mind, took some video, embellished while typing, posted, and then decided to
    For Pascal: This little video shows that sometimes the wind blows a little, kind of like bay chop.

    Windsurfing-Jake"The Snake's" Video Nights - YouTube


    Here's another video in the same general area, the Hood River community.

    ONLY HOOD RIVER - YouTube
  9. Pascal, Sep 25, 2012
    #9
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    "They gave you the right of way"

    I m not sure how that works... How do you give someone the right of way?

    Afaik there is nothing in the ROR about being given the right of way, the only way I can see this happening is if both vessels are in radio contact and the stand on vessel specifically agrees to let the give way vessel cross ahead

    Otherwise the ROR are not optional
  10. GFC, Sep 25, 2012
    #10
    GFC

    GFC Senior Member

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    AMG--"As one on the bridge said, use the horn. This is why you have it! "
    --I was the one who said that. One of the guys was driving at the time the video was being filmed.

    Pascal--"Why is this that do many people find it to hard to press an auto pilot button! "
    --FYI, we didn't have the autopilot engaged at the time.

    Bill106--Around these parts you can almost expect to be swarmed by windsurfers, jet skis and kite boarders every time you come through the inlet in a big boat. To be honest I didn't see any serious risk of collision in the video and the larger boat appeared to already be running at a fairly slow bell, not 22 knots over water at least. The smaller much more manuverable windsurfers seemed to be in full control and aware of the larger boat and turned off well before. I doubt turning or a crash stop would have prevented a collision if they were he** bent on splatting themselves on the hull sides."
    --Bill, we were making ~22.5kts on the GPS. ~18kts through the water plus around a 4kt current. The closest risk of collision was the last guy who approached us from the port side.

    Old Phart--"No one displayed an attempt to play "chicken" with powerboats. They gave you the right of way.

    If you had changed course (hung a left), as would have been necessary to make contact, you would have been at fault.

    My guess is that you dislike the boarders and were a little bored and thought up this little scenario in your mind, took some video, embellished while typing, posted, and then decided to..."
    --I guess the term "play chicken", like "beauty" lies in the eyes of the beholder. On our last passage through that area before this video was taken we had a similar situation with the windsurfers and the kite surfers. On that trip we were running at around 10kts against the current, resulting in a SOG of about 8kts. We had several surfers cross in front of the boat within about 3-5 seconds before I crossed their wake.

    In my opinion that's too close for my comfort and gives me too little time to stop, turn, etc to avoid running over one of them if he fell in front of the boat. Short of coming to a dead halt and drifting through there, the speed of the boat doesn't seem to have much effect on their actions. They seem to like the challenge of crossing close in front of boats.

    I don't mind the windsurfers and we've stopped several times while going through Hood River to watch them. They're a kick to watch. What I don't like is when they cross that close in front of me. It doesn't seem to matter what speed we're going, fast or slow, they seem to like to cross very close in front of the boat.

    Well the popcorn is cold and the cold one is warm. I wanted to see what y'all had to say about that and now I know. Thanks to all of you for your input.
  11. Old Phart, Sep 25, 2012
    #11
    Old Phart

    Old Phart Senior Member

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    I dunno
    I see; I see; or not

    If you watch the video that GFC supplied, you would see two boarders deep six; rather than play chicken.

    Where's the video?

    Oops.

    Missed the "before this video was taken" part.

    Hmmmm?

    Could that experience have been the catalyst for this thread?:rolleyes:

    So, where were the chicken players in your posted video?
  12. Capt J, Sep 26, 2012
    #12
    Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    I would say that a windsurfer would qualify as a vessel under sail and have the right away.....the danger doubt should be sounded as well.
  13. jhall767, Sep 26, 2012
    #13
    jhall767

    jhall767 Senior Member

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    Yep. And a windsurfer down would probably qualify as a vessel not in command and be the privileged vessel to other sailboats/boards.

    Sometimes you just have to slowdown or stop for kayaks or windsurfers. The only caveat would be if those windsurfers were overtaking you. In which case they would be the burdened vessel.
  14. Bamboo, Sep 29, 2012
    #14
    Bamboo

    Bamboo Senior Member

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    Where is the vessel registration? Does a windsurfer have the minimum required equipment on board?
  15. Marmot, Sep 29, 2012
    #15
    Marmot

    Marmot Senior Member

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    Definition of a Sailboard
  16. Pascal, Sep 29, 2012
    #16
    Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

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    I would think a "windsurfer down" would be a vessel not making way instead Of not under command but that s debatable. For argument sake, a windsurfer can usually get back on, get the rig up and start moving pretty quickly. Plus since he is not showing a NUC day shape, he doesn't qualify :)

    Registration is irrelevant as in many states incl FL, a non motorized vessel doesn't bed to be registered... Our 12' catboat doesn't have aux power and while titled is not registered ...
  17. luckylg, Sep 29, 2012
    #17
    luckylg

    luckylg New Member

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    Technically they are water toys. However, the USCG has deemed that for purposes of the rules of the road they are to be considered sailing vessels. The not under command comment is pretty interesting though!
  18. wscott52, Sep 29, 2012
    #18
    wscott52

    wscott52 Senior Member

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    I didn't see 3-4 foot waves.
    I didn't see 22 knots through the water, may have been OG with current.
    I didn't see any sail boarders playing chicken, or at least not very seriously.

    That being said the sail boards are sailing vessels under sail power. They are the "stand on" vessels. If you hit one odds are good you will be majority at fault. Sux, but I didn't make the rules.
  19. GFC, Oct 1, 2012
    #19
    GFC

    GFC Senior Member

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    Oh ye of little faith; second guessing my comments about the size of the waves and our speed through them.

    I wish you'd been there with me on the helm as we proceeded downstream so you could have seen for yourselves the size of the waves and our speed. My boat planes out real nice at 1750 rpm's and that equates to ~22kts through the water. We had about a 3.5-4kt current pushing us along and enjoyed the higher SOG we were making.

    It's no wonder there's so much discord on here. Some of you don't trust anyone. Sad.

    "We dislike in others that which we hate most in ourselves."
  20. Capt J, Oct 2, 2012
    #20
    Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    The waves were 2 feet at best. There is no way I would've not slowed down to dead idle or even come to neutral with those windsurfers getting in such close proximity of the vessel, especially the 2 that came so close you could've thrown them a soda from the FB. With the size of the vessel, it would've taken 200 yards to come to a dead stop at that speed, if not further.