Italian Shipyard quality...?

...These are reasons Azimut gets the bad publicity that they've earned for products and service (in the USA).

For over 21 years now, I've been at...the Scotch. That's true, but what I wanted to say and edit was:

I've been at sea and then in the shore-based industry since 1985. I've pretty-much "seen it all"...

Before all this, I was previously employed as an independent consultant to "Project Noah's Ark" (not a Lurssen project). I raised a lot of questions concerning accommodating 1 male + 1 female of every species, without any provision for any young ones which still needed their mothers (and those which might have been pregnant and might require additional space "en voyage" so to speak). To be frank, I don't believe Noah took any notice of my comments or critcisms / objections back then. I certainly don't remember being paid anything at all for all my work. It sort of makes sense to me in 2012. I've never ever "got back" from the superyacht industry anywhere near what I "put in" to it. My mind today remians a blank on all the dated past. However, I'm pretty sure that the "Project Noah's Ark". was an overall success. The descendents of all those who ever found refuge on that ancient "megayacht" or "private / commercial" vessel survived to this day. Ah yes, now I have some flashbacks - "For the very last time airship, I specified accommodations for 1 pair (M+F) of each, that was the instruction I was given and which I gave you. Just follow it OK..."?! "But Noah" I replied in frustration, "I'm a professional, what you're asking me to do (in a middle-Eastern shipyard no less...) contradicts my best instincts to provide viable solutions. Therefore, I give you notice of my impending departure and conversion to Buddhism." Yeah, well (laugh all you want), airship was reborn as what he is today. Still no sign of Noah after all these years though...?!

Yep they did... OceAnco's 95m "Indian Empress" and 87m "Nirvana". Seriously very interesting post airship, thanks.

Quite a good way to put it.

It may come as a surprise that De Vries have bought Slob Bros who used to build hulls for both Feadship yards. Damen have always brought their hulls in from other Damen yards in Poland. Oceanco used to get teirs from South Africa.

The Italians and Germans do the same.

As the Feadship group own a numbe rof their sub contractors you migt do well to swat up on this subject.

You have been corrected elsewhere in this thread already.

This is basically what I said in one of the first posts in this thread about an Italian yard and have been branded as a hater just because of that.

This situation often arises because the C/E doesn't leave his office during the build phase and invites in Parts suppliers to look at everything and provide lists of it plus parts offers. Finding this setup is generally a sign of poor supervision.

This could be seen as the reason but luckily for you nthere are some Engineers and Crew who do not adhere to this type of operation and provide you and others with a living

You must have an amazing capacity then as with the rants you often put out I would think sleep was in order shortly after you fell off your stool. Good Health.

Benetti build military vessels in both World Wars AFAIK and up until the 60s.
Same goes for Picchiotti (Arno Leopard shipyard), and Cantieri Navali di Lavagna Admiral. And not to forget Roedriguez from Messina who I think was also the inventor for the Aliscafo?
I think even Riva did something of military vessels mostly in WW.1.
Even a small yard as Rio used to build 30-25 feet military/police vessels and some of them are still in operation.

Is this a commonly accepted criterion for yacht-building success? Since OceAnco doesn't have a military past, does that mean they're poor yacht builders? Does Fleming have a military background? I don't think so, but many consider them fine yachts and I have yet to read about any wiring issues.

I don't see the connection.

Maybe I'll order a yacht from the Brooklyn Navy Yard; I can see it now--armor belt and 16-inch guns just like the Missouri. At least I wouldn't have to worry about pirates.

They have more experience in building large yachts... What difference does their time in business make? The italians have been building many more units of individually smaller sizes. The germans have been building quasi-"cruise liners", the so called "giga-yachts" of the last decade... this was the issue raised above in the thread, when it was said that fincantieri and a couple others were pumping out XXL yachts, and the question was floated "will they be as good as german/dutch large yachts"...

And just FIY, if you want to be picky about my 3rd language (I speak 5), you should say you were correcting my "improper" use of nouns, otherwise you sound like an arse, albeit an ignorant one......

LOL
And now it's clear to everybody that your opinion of Italian yachts is based on anti-Italian prejudice.



Don't trust Capt J on Italian yachts; he is motivated by anti-Italian feelings.

That reply was not so silly as it may seem to be.

The fact that one is in business for as long as the competitor does not say anything about the quality of his product.

Some 20 years ago, when the race for supersize started, there was a clear statement made by Lürssen about competition: apart from Blohm & Voss they all have to prove first, that they are able to build the really big ones! (in these days Carinthia IV was "big" at 75m)
And fact was that none of the well respected yards as Feadship, Amels or Benetti was able to.

But to the main Question.
Benetti and Codecasa built yachts were of equal quality compared with A&R, Feadship, Lürssen and all the smaller Dutch and German yards, like Lowland or Schweers, in the 60ies and 70ies. And another fact is, that they were more experienced in this field than the rest of the world. (including the German yards, but except Blohm & Voss)
That was just due to the "Viareggio cluster", where skilled craftsman were available in every other shed. Unfortunately experience did not automatically lead to longevity and quality in every case. (look at the wonderful Maserati`s or Ferrari´s which were wonderful cars, but unreliable scrap in the few days they spent on the roads)
Sure the people north of the Alpine mountains are more addicted to quality and reliabilty than those south of.

The custom built Benetti´s, CRN, and Codecasa´s are still on top of the list in terms of quality, there can be no doubt. The rest is covering the range from Ferretti / Azimuth to San Lorenzo, read: from scrap to top.
But that is valid for the most (established) countries like France or the US. Just a few build to top quality, the majority is "acceptable" or below that. And the average yachtsman with a mere 70 hrs. of sailing per annum will never notice any shortage of quality as long as the paintjob is done on schedule.

One word to the "Eurowiring"
95% of all US production boats wiring and plumbing would never stand a EU standard quality control....! although its getting better since a few years

regards
Richard

Sure Fincantieri is NOT a quality yachtbuilder and will not be for at least another decade, until they have learned what the others mentioned already know.

That's a much more balanced and realistic assessment.
I would put Riva and Wally at the top with San Lorenzo. Fincantieri could shorten their learning curve for anything Megayacht specific if they had the humility to acquire any highly specific know how they didn't have before.

What about Canados and AB? And ISA?

In my inebriated condition (when making my original contribution yesterday) and my inebriated condition today (when repling to some of you)...?!

I'm somewhat surprised not to have been simply "hosed-down" using the usual "high-pressure hoses" by all those "YF senior members", always waiting in the sidelines and ready to reduce the average YF contributor with 2 decades of experience in the industry with a simple "*******, you don't know what you're talking about comment"...

Whatever,

Milow232 who wrote

Of course you're right. They (Oceanco) were the exception to the rule back then. Apparently fabricating all the steel-works and aluminium superstructure in South Africa, then transporting same all the way on towed barges upto Holland for completion and sold as "Dutch-built"...?!

K1W1 wrote

It's often a 2-way and reciprocal thing, all about long-term relationships, confidence and "always being ready to do the max. when the client finds themselves in a ****ty-place. You (I) never give up and usually find a suitable solution. I've been supplying some yachts under different ownership continuously for the past decade. I've supplied some owners and their different yachts continuously over 15 years. Yes, I "count very much on the business that these regular and fidele clients / customers provide", but realise that at the end of the day, this is due to our relations and the underlying mutual understanding that I will never (and never have) shafted them, nor let them down whenever they have an emergency...?! Most customers recognise this. I'm not always the cheapest (always clearly say when I don't think I can be competetive), but I'm not one of the countless "concierge agencies" offering spare parts from their office in Venice or whatever, charge you 300% the usual price for your CATERPILLAR oil and fuel filters, then add their "handling charges" on top...?!

Back onto the immediate subject though...

I have always been extremely furious and angry (and remain so, after 2 decades), with all the shipyards (together with the yacht brokers and other agencies involved) that actually sell these superyachts and earn sometimes € millions in sales commissions (whether or not Feadships, Italian yachts or other shipyards wherever they're located). All too often, they sell a yacht possibly with a price tag of anywhere between €20 to 100 millions on a regular basis but offer no efficient or reliable "after-sales" service...? You could buy a FORD motor car for €15,000 and expect a more prompt after-sales service...?!

At least for me, I'm glad that GM Europe (once a serious supplier of some very nice and reliable 2-stroke engines for yachts and to many Italian shipyards) is no longer really involved, having given way to MTU, Caterpillar, Deutz etc.? I've always wondered about GM (and Ford). Apparently neither of these 2 compaines have ever declared a profit on their European (car) operations. Ever since the end of WWII apparently...?! That's a lot of years...?! Why are they still here...?! Some things I shall never understand. Perhaps someone in Switzerland could help explain...?!

I have to have a siesta now. Please excuse me.

Fincantieri Super Yacht story is strange. There first interest started with a colloboration with Benetti, but this seems to have dissappeared.

It will be interesting how the Italians will fare in 100 meters plus now that they are going into it against the Germans.
So far we have Fincantieri, Viareggio Super Yacht, and CBI Navi (Fipa Group) also presented a new 100 meter project.
IMO some yards as Codecasa, Benetti, CRN, CBI Navi, Baglietto, Mondo, Picchiotti etc always offered top of the line products that could take it with the Dutch and German in the 50 meter bracket. BTW I consider Codecasa among the best.

I have to agree about CE not passing test for some US builder. A few years ago a client commisioned a bathing platform and the disaster of wiring I saw once we opened the transom was impressive. I mean even a house builder would have been much better. OTOH I saw a lot of Cranchi's and some Azimut in the same situation and there wiring is ages ahead to the US in this department. Not all US boats are a Tiara or a Cabo in this area.
That is at least for some exports coming here in Europe.

You can be half Italian Capt.J but you hate for the Bell Paese is very apparent for all to see here in every post where some italians are involved. Was it some grudge with some Italian X lady

Guys,

This is an incredibly informative thread. Let's not dilute it with nationality bias. We are all products of our experience and we're all allowed to present our beliefs based on our experience. It's up to individual viewers to read between the lines.

FWIW, Capt. J helps a lot of people on YF, but I don't always agree with him either. For instance, I'm NOT a Cabo fan. I also disagree with him on current era Hatteras motoryachts being a better choice than other offerings. I'm a Hatteras fan, but in the motoryacht sector, I have other favorites, mostly based on ergonomics and layout.

Let's leave nationality out of the equation. Again, a lot of good information is coming from this thread. Although Liam and I got off to an "Absolutely" rocky start, I've come to respect his posts. They are often similar to my own findings.

Also, I believe TKrule brings a very unique perspective to the thread with insight into Italian yacht and ship building that many of us may never see. If you worked with these companies, you may show some favoritism too!

PLEASE, let's all be respectful of one another and leave nationality out!
We all share a common interest and passion here.​

Well I did just name one of the several semi custom and production builders because they are not part of the game.
The OP was:

hence clearly pointed towards the upper range of megayachts. Azimuth or Hatteras have nothing to do with that business, so it is not sensible to talk about their quality (or the lack of).
Btw. not just a few of the mentioned mass production boats are actually built in Turkey, and definetively not all of them to a reasonable standard.

On Codecasa I agree if we name them the best Italian, Benetti only when we talk the 1970ies, but the rest was never close to Dutch or German quality. Even the top range of the Dutch could, until quite recently, not compete with A&R, Blohm&Voss and Lürssen when it came to larger sized vessels. (say above 50m)
Below that size, there were / are really outstanding Dutch yards in business. Remember the Swiss watch quality Arie van Vulpen built with his "Lowland Yachts", to name just one of the very best. That level of quality (provided by a handful of other Dutch yards too) is still unsurpassed by any of the competition worldwide.

The fact that shipyards (not yachtbuilders) like Fincantieri can take orders for megayachts has mainly two reasons imho.
Most of the top builders refuse almost as many projects as they build, for different reasons.
The client is fine with a cosmetically touched up "cruise ship" quality because a herd of crew is required anyway to keep systems running and accomodation ship shape. For them size matters...

Regards
Richard

Good, now Carl has said all that, I'm going to be really, really nationalistic.

The following list is of products I own, have owned, sailed or worked on.

Have a guess where they come from?

2 x Benetti
1 x Posillipo
1 x Ferretti
3 x Alfa Romeo
3 x Fiat
1 x Lancia
2 x Moto Guzzi
1 x Moto Morini
1 x Gilera
1 x Benelli
1 x Aprilia
1 x Garelli
1 x Ducati

And once rode a Vespa (shudders at memory).

Each one of these products has something in common. Style.

-So, Fish, would you spend your own money an Italian yacht?

From happy and sad experiences, probably not.

-Ok, Smart Ass, where would you go?

Anywhere that I can see true, honest engineering that doesn't cut corners, a certain style that is timeless and a sense of trust while at sea. To create this, I would pick the best companies from around the world.

-And where is this 'perfect' yacht built?

Up here, sunnyboy,<taps side of head>. Up here.