Disgruntled member...

Hi,

Geez Carl, I thought I sent you that in confidence

The beauty (some times the ugliness!) of a public forum is that everyone can say his/her heart openly, within the general guidelines for sure, it gets messy some times, the thread goes off course, but again, this is a public forum where all kinds of characters are present and want to share something, that something may be accepted, rejected or even resented by others, a good part of freedom of expression is practicing silence! A few month's back I was drawn into conflict that was out of the subject of the thread and said things I shouldn't have said. Like in all public domains, one is one's own police!

Everybody sure does miss the reviews, but the news by "Yacht News", the interesting subjects by "brian eiland", the followup by "millow232", and am just giving an example of very few of the countless contributions of very fine members, which is the essence of Yachtforums in my opinion, many sites carry reviews, very few contain contribution and this is where this forum shines!

Adjusting the rules for posting is not a bad thing IF it does not handicap the content, addressing certain conversations is a must and I see many posts deleted and many threads closed by the moderators once they veer off course into uncharted waters.

Best of luck for both, Yacht Forums and Jet Forums!

Cheers to all,

Alfred

While I can't speak for Carl, perhaps what you see as a lack of "fresh editorial content" might be because the editor has been literally submerged creating new content for another site.

I, and perhaps many others, believe this site reached "critical mass" quite a while ago and doesn't depend fully on the efforts of a single person to create content. If you feel something is missing, contribute, don't criticize the one person who provides this resource for those of us who truly appreciate every aspect of it.

The only time (2) seems to occur is when an individual continues to debate an issue that any reasonable person would consider a dead horse. When someone says that noon is the darkest part of the day and is politely corrected a few times and finally provided with scientific citations to illustrate otherwise, and then decides to respond with rude retorts perhaps the criticism should be aimed at that individual alone.

You need to "own" your own feelings. This site doesn't exist to provide comfort for the insecure or timid. If you would care to count posts you might find that the number that provide assistance and information in a very polite and helpful manner exponentially exceed the very few that offend you. And to further that point, the posts that seem to cause you such angst are almost exclusively directed at a very very few posters who are obviously poor readers or slow learners in addition to simply being argumentative.

And your closing statement begs the question of what makes your comments any different than those you are whining about?

Carl,

The writer is not wrong. As with many similar forums, all too frequently a few cyber bullies take over and push through conversations insulting the OP's intelligence, competence, skills, and validity. I have, on occasion, taken the time to post a PM to posters both to attempt to answer their questions and to let them know that not all YF members are the same.

You have done a great job limiting off topic posts, politics and religion on this site. However, this site has become, and I would argue has for some time been, several bullies who like to hear themselves talk.

While I enjoy it when it is relevant, I don't particularly miss the editorial content. Reviews are nice, but they're not why I'm here. I'm sure there are many others who feel more strongly about them than myself.

The post rants, however, are another matter altogether. Closing a thread that has gone too far is fine. So is deleting a post or a member who is inappropriate. I've seen both of those happen. What I have not seen happen is a chastisement of those members "disgruntled" was referring to. They are regulars, many are senior members, and they are guilty of hogging the soapbox from time to time.

For example, some time back a new member posted a question that, while valid, was perhaps not articulately presented. Instead of asking questions of the OP, it took exactly one post before the shooting started. Posts questioned the OP about his lack of experience, the validity of his account, and suggested he was simply a troll. I PM'd the OP and got enough information to determine that he was legitimate and hopefully I was able to answer his question. I do note that his account is inactive. So, congratulations to the posse...you've scared off another potential community member.

Marmot has suggested that this site is not to provide comfort for the insecure or timid. May I ask where that exists in the rules? I think that, at least in part, this site SHOULD provide something of value for those who are not experts. We should be here sharing something of value and not simply dancing on the graves of those who dare to posit questions we deem unworthy of a legitimate response. If someone asks about safety gear, or trip planning, or a potential purchase, or whatever, don't you think it should be our job to, at the least, not jump on them for perceived faults or tactics?

Maybe I'm naive, but I think we should be an open community that welcomes the chance to share our knowledge. I know I've shared as much as I can because I know that there will be times that I need information from someone else. When I ask my questions, I hope that I'm not perceived as insecure or timid. If I am, and were I to get the kind of response I've seen from others on this site, I'd be tempted to copy and paste those responses to each and every advertiser here to let them know exactly who they are asking to represent them. I'm genuinely surprised no one has taken that step yet.

No one knows it all. But, there sure as hell are a few people on this site who think they do. Let the attacks begin...

I'm sorry that person feels that way. I think the balance is not all that bad. I was pretty sure that i have read a lot of interesting post's and learned from them.

i wish you all the best.

on the move, travler

Newbies and Greybeards sharing the waters....

I've seen this is other communities... the folks that are the experts can tend to forget that everyone starts as a newbie... and when they try to create a community that only welcomes those with the requisite experience, it generally turns into an elitist group which wanders off and eventually dies.

Some of the senior members are simply "crusty old salts" whose bark is a hell of lot worse than their bite. They call 'em like they see 'em, and can get a bit direct, but after a while its really obvious their heart is in the right place. A while back I posted something along the lines of that "when accusations are made, they often reflect a lot more about the accuser than the accused". I thought I actually saw a couple senior members start to self regulate themselves a bit better after that!

That said, I've seen some posts that could be called "cyber bullying". And it seems that the pack mentality can take over... with multiple members really stepping over the line and being personally insulting to the OP. Not sure how it should be handled, but here's a suggestion. The admin folks should be able to hand out "yellow cards" privately to posters that step over the bounds. 3 cards and your banned for 6 months (or whatever...). Cards are handed out not because the admin disagrees with the poster, but because the post is over the line in social edicate (e.g. would you really say that if we were all in person?!?).

This is a great community... both in that it supports the megayacht end of the spectrum, but also the classics, and provides a forum for like minded folks to chew the fat. Granted, lots of its quality is derived from the more experienced members, but without fresh blood continually adding to the mix... it will become a much less interesting place (and that fresh blood also helps Carl's numbers and click throughs). So, live and let live, follow the golden rule, and be grateful for the crusty old salts that add spice to the conversation!

Ditto. I have said the same thing, perhaps not as articulately, in PMs and posts.

Let me add that just the other day I was thinking that I haven't seen a flame war on here in a while (for which I am grateful! Flame wars are not interesting reading.). Things seem to be becoming more civil than they have in the past, and this post appears to confirm that. A year ago I would not have been surprised to see a thread like this devolve into name calling and would stop coming back to it.

In particular, a member that I have always considered a bully has changed the tone of their posts, much to their credit. It makes the rest of their posts more credible and the entire site much more enjoyable to browse.

I don't usually reply to threads like this but, for some reason, I think I will give it shot for once. I would just like to make it clear from the start, my opinions are based off of the Megayacht sections and skimming through the General section posts.

I've been around here for a while, a lot longer than it says actually. I've seen how this site has been ran for the last several years. I remember when several senior members became mods, etc. Honesty, a lot of what has been stated is true. I consistently sit back and watch conflicts go on in this forum section that just seem absurd. There is a lot of issues that I have with this site but I keep that private.

Regardless of this, I will break my own rule and speak out here for once. Everyone in this thread are discussing the issues that were presented and I agree that they are genuine issues. Yes I see the conflict between certain members. it's pretty evident so it really doesn't even need to be discussed more. The reviews? Well, for the Megayacht section at least, I really don't care. Maybe I am the only one who thinks this but I really don't think they are anything special and wonder a lot of the time how it takes as long as it is said to produce. I was starting to go on and on so if anyone would like an elaboration on my opinion, feel free to ask.

Above all, my main concern is different than those previously discussed. Maybe I'm wrong here or the only one who thinks this way but is it really appropriate to be posting emails like this? I am not just referencing this. Over the years, I've seen many private emails and private messages made public. I suppose I just don't think that it is appropriate. I also believe it is very detrimental because I have seen how it has been used before and it isn't professional. It doesn't promote growth, but hurts it and it hurts credibility. There is more I can say on this matter as well but I will close using this as an example. This thread was made to get feedback. By providing information like this, it promotes bias in the feedback. Yes, provide some sort of guide as to the area of feedback desired but posting an email will move the sample into a certain direction, skewing the data and ultimately leaving out other information that may be of use to you. Combine this example with my previous points and maybe my concern is validated, maybe it isn't.

I will truly close with this: this is the best Megayacht forum available and I am appreciative of the membership that is granted to me. For a forum such as this to thrive, though, these issues (and, in my opinion, my last point) need to be addressed for it to thrive.

I sincerely doubt that you will be able to cite a single instance of a new poster, asking what might be considered the most obvious or elemental question, being assaulted or treated badly by anyone on this site. If you have an example please post it.

I believe that exactly the opposite is the case. Either the post doesn't generate a response at all, or someone simply refers them to Google, or if someone wants to help, it will get a legitimate response. While you are searching for negative examples, why not catalog those responses as well and tell us the ratio.

There are a very few members who claim expertise who constantly (though they have lately been thankfully quiet) post patently absurd nonsense that contributes nothing but confusion to new readers who came here to learn something. When those people are corrected they tend to react badly. When it is forbidden to call an absurdity absurd just because a microscopic portion of the readership finds it disturbing is pandering which I personally find disturbing. To carry that to its logical conclusion, those who whine about participating in an adult dialogue should be banned.

If watching sausage being made is upsetting, the best solution is not to ban sausage but to avoid watching the process. Don't ask the shop owner to soothe your pains by taking sausage off the shelf.

It is painfully easy to find; a five minute scan netted several. But, this is not a "he said/he said" post. I suspect that Carl was hoping for some self-regulation. And, others have confirmed my observations with their own so I do not feel the need to prove anything. I'm sure Carl could provide you with ample references if he so chooses.

Sorry to say, but you sort of prove the OPs original point, Marmot. This is a commercial site with something to lose. When a customer points out a problem the first response should not be to blame the messenger. And, make no mistake, these lost members are customers. They view the ads, hopefully follow some links, and that generates the revenue that keeps this site alive. Sometimes they'll be wrong, or wrong headed, or just a moron. It's how we respond to those posts that requires some evaluation. And, every time some senior member (or anyone else for that matter) says, "they're the problem, not us" the site loses visitors, advertisers lose traffic, and revenue (and potential revenue) drops.

"I sincerely doubt that you will be able to cite a single instance of a new poster, asking what might be considered the most obvious or elemental question, being assaulted or treated badly by anyone on this site. If you have an example please post it."

So where are they?

Thread title and post number please. In this context, that constitutes a citation. If you can't back up your charges you shouldn't make them and shouldn't be offended when you are called to account for making false accusations.

And for the record, that is not "bullying" it is a challenge to you to substantiate your claim. If you can't or won't substantiate it then please stop making such claims, they are offensive.

Since this entire thread is based on feelings and opinion, it is imperative that we all know what constitutes an affront. Simply posting that you (the inclusive you, meaning any and all) feel offended or hurt is far from proving an offense or damage to anyone.

If you feel that my stating that I believe it is BS for the oversensitivities of a very few to dictate content or rhetoric is beyond your capacity to endure then may I suggest another form of entertainment than this one.

If you feel it is proper to threaten advertisers or the site management with supercilious threats to boycott advertisers because your sensitivities have been tweaked then you really ought to take a good hard look inwards and worry a bit less about what other people say to each other.

I think that YF is a great place to talk over boats and questions about boats and reading about places to take our boats. Come on people. Lets have fun with this site. Lets take it for what its worth. A great resource for boaters.

Hear hear.

Example...

So... some have asked for clear examples... for the most part I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but an example just jumped out that if it were anyone other than the the top admin... I'd pass . Quote from http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-yachting-discussion/19088-ned-yachts.html

"One of my pet peeves is when members of the yachting media use YF to further their publishing exploits. I've caught most of them. Occasionally, one slips under the radar. It's time for someone to come clean..."

The response:

"I have no relationships with either Vripack or Ned bv, in fact I am a manufacturer of Incontinence ware for nursing homes in the UK, perhaps you are seeing too many "reds in the beds", I was impressed by the build of the yacht and wanted more information; one of the reasons I believe that this site was started was to create an atmosphere of gaining knowledge rather than being accused of surreal acts. Shame how these sites are so strictly monitored for gain that they loose their original reason for being there. If you wish to ban me so be it. But remember you are only as good as your membership.
Paul"

Going back to the top of this post: "certain members need to maintain self awareness about how their posts may be perceived."

Well, there we have it. Yachtforum's post was made in good faith but taken the wrong way. The good news is others jumped in immediately and set the record straight. Thanks Fishtigua and K1W1!!

So... I've seen other members get caught up in the same traps... the simple fact is that there are trends and if you've been personally involved in a few of these fisticuffs then you're among those who rightfully "need to maintain self awareness about how their posts may be perceived." 90% of this stuff is simple stupid human nature and somehow turns sour despite best intentions.

I have seen a couple of times when the pi**ing match became vindictive and over the line. As Thumper's mother said in Bambi "If you don't have anything good to say... say nothing at all".

Since this has now devolved to me lecturing others using cartoon characters as role models... I'll sign off.... but as another poster said:

"I think that YF is a great place to talk over boats and questions about boats and reading about places to take our boats. Come on people. Lets have fun with this site. Lets take it for what its worth. A great resource for boaters."