Click for JetForums Click for Cross Click for Furuno Click for Westport Click for Abeking

Running gear design issue.......

Discussion in 'Technical Discussion' started by ddw1668, Apr 6, 2012.

You need to be registered and signed in to view this content.
  1. ddw1668

    ddw1668 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Murrells Inlet, SC
    I recently bought a 1979 Chris Craft CC that was a complete rebuild and repower in 2009. The engine is a Captains Choice 350 V8 with 330 HP. The prop is a 14X11 that I had computer tuned. The shaft and engine were misaligned and that was addressed as well.

    The problem is the boat seems to run bow high and develops a vibration above 2800 RPMs. Top RPMs is around 4800 and the engine is rated for 4800 to 5200. I can lower the bow with the existing tabs, but it labors the engine.

    I am thinking that the trim tabs (Lenco 12X9) are too small and the boat is squatting at speed. As for speed, it idles at 3.5 to 4.0 knots and runs around 38 WOT and will plane out instantly with very little throttle. All the usual vibration suspects have been checked.

    The boat came from the factory with a 220 HP small block and the same prop and rudder size. Don't know the original trim tab size.

    Any thoughts????
  2. YachtForums

    YachtForums Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    20,611
    Location:
    South Florida
    The hull appears to have a lot of rocker in it. In my opinion, the tabs are undersize. It's bordering on a Jersey Speed Skiff. ;)

    By the way... BEAUTIFUL tender!
  3. dennismc

    dennismc Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    1,177
    Location:
    Vancouver BC
    Also check for rudder balance and bearing conditions.
  4. RT46

    RT46 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    1,059
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    nice, ive been searching for something like that for a while.....

    ill take it off your hands, no problem
  5. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,530
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    38 knots at WOT is pretty good for that boat and HP combination. I'd like to see a little less pitch and more rpm at full throttle. I'm assuming 4800 rpms is with you in it and no other people (light)? Check your exhaust and make sure there aren't any spots where it is vibrating against the hull. If it has a small tunnel, you might be stuck with the vibration as the tunnel might not have been designed to handle as much waterflow as with the new horsepower. How close is the propellor blades to the hull. If there's an inch or less there, then that could definately cause vibration from what I've seen.
  6. 84far

    84far Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    794
    Location:
    Brisbane, AUS
    Hi,

    Sounds like it could be a weight issue (trim angle). Though having said that, she looks as though she's sitting on her lines nicely.
    As Carl said maybe bigger trim tabs, or next time she needs some paint, could add more buoyancy (wide spray chines).
    I could run some numbers on the beam and determine a trim angle to suit if needed.

    By the way, gorgeous boat! Cheers

    Far
  7. ddw1668

    ddw1668 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Murrells Inlet, SC
    Thanks guys.....

    The clearances between the hull and prop and from the prop to the rudder are in spec and we rebuilt the rudder log and upper support and replaced the cutlass bearing which was worn due to misalignment.

    The exhaust is quite loud even with 4" mufflers. I will check the exhaust to hull clearances or lack thereof. The tunnel between the stringers is quite narrow and the stringers were strengthened during the refit which cut clearance even more.

    A friend suggested videotaping the bow wave and hull form underway and I think that would be helpful. Larger tabs are under consideration.

    Any volunteers to drive the Donzi and video the Chris Craft?:D

    Attached Files:

  8. lovinlifenc

    lovinlifenc Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    135
    Location:
    Wilmington NC
    Nice Boats! It would be worth the drive down from wilmington.
  9. Bill106

    Bill106 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Messages:
    390
    Location:
    Beaufort NC
    The vibration and running angle are two different animals. Has the shaft been checked with a dial indicator? You said the cutlass bearing was worn, hopefully the alignment issue was corrected. CNC scanned wheels are not necessarily the end-all, they usually only measure the aft blade faces and differing blade thickness can sneak by undetected. Try and find a shop that will not only do a static balance but also a dynamic spin balance the same as you would a car tire. I know some of that sounds pretty basic but it doesn't take much to cause vibration at those shaft rpm's.

    A side pic of the running gear would also be very helpful. Too close prop to rudder clearance can cause blade pulses to be transmitted through the rudder stock. If the prop clearance isn't at least 15% of the blade diameter, in this case just over 2", then I'd suggest adding cup if it doesn't already have some. It may require removing some pitch though since you sound propped right at the edge already and freeing up the engine is always a good thing.

    The bow high running angle isn't a suprise with that rocker, actually I'd have almost expected some porposing. Wider and/or longer chord tabs will definitely help bring the bow down and reduce the drag you get running smaller tabs all the way, they start acting like speed breaks.

    If she is bow high at all running speeds a small bottom change may be a better idea than new tabs. Adding a wedge to the aft running section is relatively inexpensive and can change running angle with less drag than tabs and still leave you the option of using them when you need to lower the bow and punch through some chop but keeping the bow up in following seas. An old trick to decide if a wedge is in order is to stretch a VERY tight 1/4" piece of line from aft cleats, under the hull just ahead of the transom. Obviously this has to be very tight to stay in place but if it breaks her over, you can haul and add a epoxy/cabosil wedge with very little effort and leave everything else as is.

    A different design wheel can also help the running angle. Wheels can bemade with different blade rake which can lift the stern, effectively lowering the bow.

    Absolutely gorgeous boat and looks like she is better than new! Congratulations on an excellent job, you are in the fine-tuning stage now.
  10. garyohv

    garyohv New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2011
    Messages:
    36
    Location:
    Florida & Oregon
    Can you move your fuel tank forward?
  11. 84far

    84far Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    794
    Location:
    Brisbane, AUS
    I think if there was a porpoising problem, moving the tank forward would help. But it seems like there's a heavier weight issue, and thus a lift issue, as it was running X amount (220hp), and now it's running Z amount (330hp). I would suggest longer Stabs... I think this would be the cheapest "experiment" - trial and error.....

    Far
  12. Pascal

    Pascal Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    8,546
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    You say it s running how high but you can bring it down with the trim tabs... So if they work why would you want to increase their size.

    You may need to find the tab setting. You have more weight at the stern so will need some tab to create more lift but your speed go up you will need to raise them up to prevent the bow from being pushed to far down as the hull creates lift

    Before moving the fuel tank forward experiment with adding weight forward

    That s a big increase in HP...
  13. Capt Bill11

    Capt Bill11 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2006
    Messages:
    1,459
    Location:
    Sarasota/Ft. Lauderdale FL
    I'm wondering if the vibration is due to the increase in HP and engine size. The size and design of the stringers and engine mounts may need to be looked at. Did the stringers get cut down where the engine mounts are located to accommodate the new engine at the time of the engine swap by chance?
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,530
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    If it's running 38 knots WOT, I don't think it's a trim tab or running angle issues. Sounds to me, it could be that the shaft isn't strong enough for the additional HP and flexing (inspect while running at cruise). Or the tunnel doesn't flow enough water for the additional waterflow causing reverberation.......Or could simply be an exhaust hitting somewhere or alignment.....have you checked shaft alignment with the boat in the water? I wouldn't go moving around fuel tanks and such.....unless I was SURE it was a problem.....adding 100lbs in the very bow, should give you an idea of what moving the tank foward a foot would do.
  15. sunchaserv

    sunchaserv Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2011
    Messages:
    140
    Location:
    Carefree, AZ
    It would seem the 330 and gear train would be heavier engine by several hundred pounds. Some weight moved forward like batteries may help but I'm not sure how aft weight bias would cause a shuddering vibration.
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2012
  16. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,530
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    No, the engine is the same block and weight as what was removed......just different HP via bore and stroke and cylinder head style......etc.......it's probably a touch lighter via the use of an aluminum intake manifold etc etc.....
  17. ddw1668

    ddw1668 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2007
    Messages:
    133
    Location:
    Murrells Inlet, SC
    Thanks for all the suggestions. This is what we all come to this site for......

    The boat has been on the hard for two weeks for a refresh on the bright work. Thought it would be a three day job, but as always......

    I am leaning toward larger tabs and isolating the mufflers which are under the deck just behind the helm seats. The tunnel between the stringers is narrow as the stringers were beefed up as part of the engine upgrade. The mufflers are 4" dia. and are bolted to the hull with a four inch wide aluminum strap around them. There is no damping between the mufflers, clamps, and the hull.

    Moving the fuel tank is not an option as there is no room forward. It stands on end just ahead of the transom. (60 gal.):confused:
  18. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,530
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    The mufflers are definately transferring some vibration to the boat IMO.......
  19. 84far

    84far Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    794
    Location:
    Brisbane, AUS
    ddw1668,

    Do you know how much the boat weighs before and after the refit, or a general weight of the boat...? Also the previous motor that was in there...? Cheers

    Far
  20. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    14,530
    Location:
    Fort Lauderdale
    The new motor is based off of the same block as the old motor, so the weight should be the same +/- 100 lbs.