Researching boats

I think you have some basic numbers out of context I think you should be looking at 10% of replacement cost meaning 10% of what it would cost to build the boat today per year as general running cost not including fuel. Just because you can pick up a 100 ft yacht for under a million does not discount what it costs to run in fact the opposite is true.

Look at $ 1000 per foot per year for a captain to start and offer regular incentives to perform. Do not penny pinch on crew wages a good crew will save you more than their wages in the long run.

Judging from your preferred destinations I'd recommend keeping it on the east coast. The drive across is a whole lot cheaper and faster than the cruise around. Depending how many times you travel east you'll save many thousands in fuel alone. You also have a lot better access to big boat services.
And Gary was right, if the boat you're looking for was $3M new you're looking at 10% of that avg.

I'd highly consider thinking about how exactly you are going to use the yacht......how long on-board at a time, how many guests, cruising destinations, any fishing, diving etc etc..... then find a boat that meets all of those needs. There is a big difference in operating cost and cruising speed between say a 3 Stateroom 64' Hatteras MY and say a 75' Hatteras MY with 4 staterooms. You could get away with someone managing the 64' part time, on the 75' you're looking at a full time Captain, and 85' a full time captain and most likely a full time mate. Fuel burn varies greatly with the size, type, and cruising speed of the yacht you're considering. Your insurance is going to dictate you need a Captain on board when the vessel is underway. Insurance should run around 2% of the boats value a year......$1mill= $20k a year in insurance (roughly). Figure 4 Gallons per mile at cruise for a 64' Hatt MY, 5-6 GPM for the larger end of the spectrum.....this is at cruise, you can cut that to about 20% of that figure if you don't mind running around at 9-10 knots......this is just a rough guess for most MY's. .....

Forget the $1,000 per foot per year to maintain. I agree, about 10% of the purchase price (not including major repairs such as rebuilding motors, painting the whole boat etc), or 10% replacement cost on a longterm budget including those things.

There is NO yachting in Naples unless you want to go in the Gulf of Mexico and cruise around in circles. Yeah, you could head up to Ft. Myers or down to Key West, but there is nowhere close to go without going in the Gulf and running a few hours. I'd recommend keeping it in Naples for a few months, Key West for a few months, Fort Lauderdale for longer and doing the Bahamas.....if you don't mind a quick flight or drive.......

I originally set my boat up under an LLC and got a commercial insurance policy.
I started thinking about the whole process of having clean custom sheets and the matching pillows etc. Not a problem at all when I'm the only user ... but the thought of having to have an extra set (or several) for use in a charter environment ... and then complaining customers when something wasn't just right ..... Then the idea of not being able to keep my personal stuff on the boat etc etc. etc. What a bummer.

I quickly realized it's all way out of my league.

It would be one thing if I could write off income from my profitable business on the boat but that is not possible. The only income I could write off would be the dollars generated from chartering the boat. In other words ... defray my expenses/costs while basically ruining the experience. If it's the only way I could swing it, maybe.

I suppose some people can own and depreciate a boat if (for instance), they have a profitable restaurant at their marina and they want to also offer "fishing or cruises" ... then maybe the boat just becomes an asset of the business and can be just another write off. (depreciate the multi million dollar boat against the millions the restaurant / hotel is spinning off every year).

Anyway, since I don't own a marina or hotel or restaurant etc, ... I just put the thing back in my own name.

Definitely sounds like you might want to start in the 58 - 75 motoryacht category.

Thanks everyone for helping us out. This is all good information. It sounds as though with charter based on the east coast (MIA/Ft. Laud), it would be feasible to bring back enough revenue to make a dent in the yearly costs/upkeep. That is keeping fuel and provisions aside.

Your son is going to be expensive!

I don't believe that asking prices have any bearing on value or purchase price. (With the exception of new boats, which may be able to be purchased anywhere from 20% to 30% off the retail list price, for a no trade purchase on a popular, current model .... more if it is a leftover) For used boats, prices will be all over the place, because some owners understand the marketplace, and some do not. Accordingly, a boat with a "firm", but low, asking price may be the best value. Conversely, a boat with an unrealistic asking price, who's owner has seen the boat languish in the market place, may ultimately provide the best value.

When I'm shopping for a boat, I search Yachtworld, and look for several boats that seem to meet my needs. I tend to ignore boats that are clearly overpriced, as I don't feel the need to waste my time. Next, I try to list the boats in the order that "I" think is the best value asking price, to the worst value asking price. From there, I make some phone calls to the boats with the "worst" asking prices, and let them know that I am looking at boats with what I percieve to be better asking prices. If the seller says "I'd take an offer", I keep the boat on the list. If the Seller says, "no way I'd sell for that", I take it off the list. Finally, I pick the boat from my list that I would most like to own, and I make a low (but not necessarily insulting) offer, and I see what happens. If I can by the boat I like the best, great, I buy it. If I can't get that boat to be one of the better "values" on my list, I go to the next boat.

In the end, to me, it isn't ALL about value. I'd rather forgo some value for enjoyment, because to me, boating should be about enjoyment, assuming you can readily afford that enjoyment.

About 6 months ago, I purchased a 2002 Azimut 55. I brought the boat down the ICW from NC. For the last couple of months, I have been boating out of Sarasota, with the boat being kept at Marina Jack. So far, I've found lots of enjoyable boating along the west coast. We have been into Naples a couple of times, as both sets of inlaws live there. The one downside to Naples is that you have a fairly long run to the Gulf, and there is no way to go up/down the ICW for a pleasure cruise. If it is rough outside, you're stuck. I did try to take my boat up the old ICW from Marco to Naples, but I found lots of shallow spots, and eventually turned back after a couple of miles. I have not had any trouble boating along the ICW from Fort Meyers to Tampa. I draw 4 feet.

I think the east coast has somewhat better boating, but we've found the east coast to be plenty enjoyable. It would drive me nuts to have to drive 2 hours every time I wanted to go boating. If I lived on the west coast, I'd find a way to keep it there, but that's clearly a choice only you could decide upon.

I pay about $7,000 for a $600,000 hull value, with a $15,000 deductible, and a higher deductible for named storms. I think something just over 1% of hull value is a good estimate.

I think that any % of purchase price estimate is nearly useless. If I buy a new boat with warranty, I paid a lot more for the boat, but my repair expenses will be negligible. Conversely, if I buy a 10 year old boat, I met get the boat for a cheap price, but there may be lots of deferred maintenance, and things will certainly break more often.

The boat that I bought was in very good aesthetic condition, and all of the major mechanical systems, and engines, were very well maintained. However, the boat didn't get used at all for overnights, so a lot of the smaller mechanical systems needed some TLC. Also, I did a lot of research pre-purchase, and came to the conclusion that Azimut's have some systems with oddball European engineering. I think I bought the boat "right", but I knew that I was going to spend lots of $ on some aesthetic upgrades (basically colors, because I'm married!), as well as replacement of systems that were, or might become, questionable in the future. I invested about 15% of my purchase price into the boat right from the start, before I ever even used it.

Now, I have a boat that seems to be running very well, with only minor repair issues. It's not a new boat by any means, but it looks and runs great, for about 1/3 the cost of buying an equivalent new boat. That's not to say something major won't break .... someday something will, and at that point I will be faced with a major expense, but that's boating.

Here are some of the costs I am paying for "non-repair" type maintenance, and operating costs:

Bottom Cleaning (monthly, more often in summer) $112
2X per month wash/clean: $250/mo
Wax hull and deck: $1,000 every 3 months
Monthly service check: Batteries, belts, strainers, fluid levels: $65/mo
Fuel: 25kts @ 50GPH cruise. (Twin Cat C-12's @ 715HP)
Generator and engine oil changes and preventative maint: $2,000/yr

I do not have a captain or maintenace company, as my marina manages the various contractors as part of my dockage fee. (Marina Jack in Sarasota, where I pay about $1,000/mo, including electric.)

Adding all of the "known" maintenance items, plus insurance, dockage, and assuming 200 hours per year at cruise speed, I'll probably spend about $60,000, with fuel amounting to over 1/2 of that cost. Low and behold, that is about 10% of the value of my boat, as others have suggested is a reasonable budget. BUT, things are still going to break on a 10 year old boat. Will stuff break that sets me back $10,000 to $20,000? Almost assuredly. Could something break that amounts to a $50,000+ bill? Sure, and I'm prepared to pay that if it happens. If you're not financially prepared for a big surprise, you should either buy a new boat (and get hit with big depreciation) or buy a boat that costs less to operate .... nothing worse than trying to enjoy something that isn't readily affordable.

Feel free to send me a PM, with your contact information, if you'd like to discuss any of my (relatively limited) experience with my new (but used!) boat.

Mark

Mark- you're pretty much right in the ballpark for what you're paying and getting.

One thing I'd highly recommend ordering and having on-board your boat as a spare part is one of the exhaust compensators and the 2 band clamps, the stainless steel accordian looking part between the exhaust riser and elbow, it's under a blanket. They usually go about every 2 years on them and it's about a month wait to get one out of Italy. I'd also keep an eye on them because you'll notice black soot in the Engine Room or around the blanket. If you don't catch it early you'll have your entire engine room sooted up as well as carbon monoxide.

I'd heard enough about the Azimut exhaust problems to make that a priority in the "fix it before it breaks" category. When I bought the boat, there was a small soot stain at the turbocharger conection. I was told that the sytem was not well supported to Cat specs. I had also read of prior bellows failures. Accordingly, I had the entire exhaust system removed from the turbochargers to the fiberglass hull exit. Deangelo Marine Exhaust designed an entirely new system, including all US parts, and additional support brackets. Cost me about $10K, but I'm a lot less worried about a serious outbreak of "sootitis".

I did a lot of this sort of thing on the boat. Replaced all of the water, sewer, and bilge pumps with American units, replaced all the major engine room hoses, etc. I also did a lot of customizing, including a heavy duty shelving system in the lazarette, replacement of all the teak cockpit/platform decking with Nuteak (which I love, BTW), installed a custom dinghy cradle on the flybridge, and redid all the carpet/upholstery with a more modern decor.The prior owner had installed all new Raymarine charplotters, and had redone all of the exterior upholstery, so the boat is well equipped and shows well.

It's still the only boat that met our important criteria, which included, modern lines, good helm visibility while docking from the flybridge (it's just my wife and I quite often), dinghy crane/davit on the flybridge, lower helm station for cold/bad weather, canvas bimini on the flybridge if we want to get some sun (we live in NH!), upper salon galley, reasonably fast cruise speed, and no upper bunks in the 3rd stateroom. I keep looking at boats, and nothing else meets our requirements as well as this boat.

It has it's shortcomings. The cabinet hardware is pretty cheap, the boat is no gem in head on rough seas (but neither is my wife, so we just avoid it), the wiring/breaker system is a hodgepodge design (but has yet to be an issue), and I find the flybridge seating uncomfortable, particularly from the helm.

That said, we love the boat. I really feel I made a good investment in terms of original purchase, upgrades, and most importantly, overall enjoyment. I know an Azimut has a sketchy reputation with some people, but with some time and $, many of the shortcomings can be overcome, with a nice boat as a result.

Aviator - to keep things straight, are you the son or the same person as r3leves? Trying to clarify who's on first.

Either way, I think this post has a ton of info for many others. Thanks to all who have/are contributing.

Changing the exhaust was the best thing you could've done on that boat. I've had to change those bellow/compensators on every Azimut I've managed, and of course the owners didn't want to spend $10k to change the whole system when the compensator, clamps, shipping, and labor is $1k for each one. I've managed/maintained a 70' seajet, 2-68' plus', a 50' FB, and currently am managing a 58' FB.

I too have found the FB helms on all of the azimuts too low, the seat too close to the steering wheel etc. but, it is what it is. All in all they're not bad boats, they just have annoying nuances such as the electrical and breakers, parts, and such.......and the wonderfully weird float switches they use......I usually convert everything to US as needed (pumps/float switches/ etc.). If you need any Azimut parts, the best place I've found is Surfside MarineMax in NY (Long Island I think), the guy Rob in the parts department knows his Azimuts and they stock a lot and get it to you fast.

It's Surfside3 MarineMax. They're on Wellwood Ave. in Lindenhurst (western Suffolk County). There are several locations on the Island. This is the one you need.PM me if you need they're number.

Thanks. Sorta hijacked the post, but might have helped rule out an Azimut for the OP!

While I don't disagree that if you want to max out your charter potential the East coast is the way to go, don't totally rule out the West coast.

I used to run a 70' Viking and then an old style 80' Lazarra (a boat you should look at by the way during your search) out of Sarasota and since both drew right around 4.5 feet I never had a problem going up and down the ICW.

If the boat was based out of Naples you'd have a fairly easy run to the Keys. As well as up North to Sanibel, Captiva, Useppa Island, Cabbage Key, Boca Grande, Venice, Sarasota, Long Boat Key, St. Pete and Tampa, etc. All of which make for very nice cruising grounds. And since you can run in the ICW and the distances aren't to great you can have short protected runs. Which many charterers might find very inviting. That plus some people aren't into the Miami/Lauderdale scene and like the more laid back West coast style.

With the right crew and marketing I think you might be surprised at how many charters you could get.

r3leves, please check your PM box.

THIS IS WHAT I THINK... Comments? If the boat is in charter and generate passive loses... then those loses can offset passive gains that you may happen to have. Your limited to the number of weeks of personal use, but that's not too bad. This works well with vacation rentals which we do own (hey PM me if you want to swap for a charter for 7 bedroom oceanfront in Hatteras NC!). We get about 25 weeks a year...

For a 1990s CPMY in fair condition, what charter opportunities are there? Are there good ft lauderdale companies that would put the mgt, crew, and marketing together?