Coastal Passage Experience & Training

Buried? I thought post #9 shined a fairly bright light on that aspect with a link to the MARAD waiver information and application.

By the time he gets a waiver and complies with all the other requirements for an operation like he is trying to sell, no one in his right mind would want to make the trip anyway.

The boat owner really ought to be wondering about his Magellanic minion's mastery of maritime mendacity ... or his judgement at least.

What would be the right way to do this?

For aircraft pilots in the US, if you share expenses then you may fall into private operations, but if the pilot is paying $0... then you better have a commercial ticket. So I'd expect that insurance coverage and so forth would split along those lines in that scenario (light aviation).

My sense is the OP wasn't planning on any out of pocket expenses... I have no idea if in the maritime world this is a similar case to the aviation example, but it sure looks like a charter to me. Plus the fact that the captain is not the owner adds to the whole sense that this is a commercial undertaking.

That said, I think the concept of gaining experience on someone else's boat with a good captain in charge, all at a reduced cost because its a working transit, has merit. So how would those with a better sense of the legalities than I suggest handling such a scenario... keeping it on the up-and-up for all involved?

Not meaning to offend you cap. Just pointing out that it's a simple matter of adding a rider.

I think they'd drop you like you never existed.

It just got a little lost in the rest, and I thought needed a bit more attention so others don't make that mistake. As I said: "There are so many ways to run afoul of both the law and prudence involved here that the venture would be a mistake."

That may be a bit harsh. Yes we should all know all the regs and we will be hung by the ones we don't, but we're not all walking encyclopedias. However, what we don't know we should thoroughly investigate before we embark on territory we're unfamiliar with. But like I said before, I think Henning's heart was in the right place. He came here thinking for one purpose and instead got an education. I'm sure he's a perfectly capable captain who satisfies his bosses needs or he wouldn't be running such a fine boat and have a close relationship with the owner as he seems to have. We all make mistakes, and yes there is no forgiveness when we do, but we make them anyway. I think we all know some really bad captains who are reckless, drunk or hung over or just totally incompetant and we shake our heads in wonderment at how they can even be working. I don't get the impression Henning is one of those. Even doctors who hold the very breath of life in their hands make mistakes. Don't we wish all our doctors graduated from Johns Hopkins or such, but they aren't.
I think this thread has served very well to educate. This is a venture that many of us have thought of as a way to save our bosses money, but after sufficient thought realized the folley of. I think that's the point our friend is at right now.

If the owner wanted the boat in Florida bad enough, the fuel cost and dockage is not an issue. Charter trip yes, training no. Plain and simple.

If the op had the owners credit card, said "take the boat to FL, and bring a friend", then that would be a different story. There wouldn't be any 16k charge split 4 ways....

It sounds to me (because I've been in a similar situation with a boat I had a lot of time on and cared for and about), that the owner cannot afford to either winterize or run the boat down, and Henning is attempting to find a way to help out the boat and the owner.......BUT, I have no idea what his intentions are.

Either way, it does not sound like a luxury cruise or luxury charter by any means. But legalities aside, it does sound like a good opportunity for some people interested in doing a trip on a yacht like that (that they may never be able to afford), or a trip like that, that they may never get a chance to do.

Such a wonderful opportunity to start your yachting career by learning how to scam the system that is designed to protect owners and charter guests (and crew)from fraudulent and potentially dangerous operations and operators.

What a wonderful opportunity to help put legitimate charter operators out of business. What a wonderful opportunity to buy a sea time letter rather than spend less on a legitimate and approved training course provided by an organization with approved instructors and insurance coverage.

It is that kind of opportunity and training that I see when a fake license or a padded CV comes across my desk. It is that kind of opportunity that leads captains and engineers to falsify log books and oil record books to cover their butts without giving a thought to the owner's liability.

It is that kind of opportunity that attracts regulators with microscopes to add even more rules to try and stop the kind of people who provide those "opportunities" to people who simply don't know any better and are supposed to be protected from people who should.

I'm sorry Marmot, but that is so over reaching to the point of being ridiculous. I agree with you that Henning's plan is ill conceived (just my personal opinion). But this is over the top. Of the 27 coastal runs I've done probably 85% have had owners on board. On several of them the owners have brought friends. I don't know or care if the owner charged them for the experience. What I do know is that everyone on board learned a lot. I've never been asked to certify sea time for those trips, but that experience is far more valuable than sitting in any classroom or owning a boat that sits at the dock. To the best of my knowledge there is only one operation doing runs down the coast and that is simply a mini-cruise line. Henning is not taking jobs away from anybody. In fact, he is creating jobs with his idea because he's keeping a boat moving that would otherwise be sitting the winter out in a northern marina. This is all about legalities and risk. It is about nothing else. If he had a boat that met the legal requirements and had the proper insurance riders the only problems I would see are a) the schedule, b) guaranteeing the outside running and c) the night running. He is not talking about setting up a commercial operation that sells tickets running up and down the coast. He's looking for boaters who would like to make the run to gain experience, would like to do it on a nice boat and are willing to split the expenses. Let's not make a simple cruise down the coast into an attempt to compete with the naval academy.

An owner can take anyone he wants anywhere he goes. He cannot advertise for paying passengers to accompany him unless he and the boat meet the minimum requirements for that operation.

What you personally have done is irrelevant. Henning included the following statement in a similar advertisement on another yachting website: "You'll stand your watches, you will do engineering duties under supervision as well as deck and interior maintenance and you will learn to dock the boat under supervision, you will be hands on. I will document your time and training onboard."

Any illegal charter takes business away from legitimate operators who have "paid their dues" by taking those steps that are intended to protect the public from ill equipped or unsafe operators.

OK so who is talking about anything else? The public records show that the boat offered in the advertisement is not certificated for the operation that has been advertised. As far as risk, the CG has determined that a single operator cannot safely perform the duties required by an extended (overnight) voyage and that turning over operational control of the vessel to an uncertificated person while the captain rests is illegal.

Neither I nor anyone else would have said a word. Since the opposite appears to be the case and no information to the contrary has been submitted by the advertiser, this discussion continues.

Well, actually he is. He has advertised to sell berths on a foreign built, recreational vessel making a coastwise voyage from NY to Florida. The law does not include a one-time exemption or one based on good intentions or fleeting opportunity.

Unless MARAD has issued the advertised vessel an exemption to the laws governing coastwise trade and a new document endorsed for that trade has been issued (but somehow didn't make it into the database) the advertised voyage is illegal.

As a captain you really should understand the rules and why they exist. There are countless opportunities for those who want to experience a small boat voyage. Anyone with 4 or 8 thousand dollars to spend would be better served to buy good accident insurance and an airline ticket and take one of the hundreds of unpaid crewing opportunities offered online by the owners of cruising sailboats and on powerboat deliveries around the world.

If you can't understand the not very subtle differences in the operation being advertised and the experience offered by owners with a need for recreational crew and companionship then you have missed an important aspect of what licensure and maritime regulations are all about.

I personally believe that starting your training with an exercise in evading the laws that govern that operation while performing in a manner that has been deemed unsafe at the very least is a poor start. The damage to the industry and those who want to become part of it by this kind of operation is unacceptable. Maybe the development of a culture of safe and legal operations is not important to your part of the industry but it should be.

"You'll stand your watches, you will do engineering duties under supervision as well as deck and interior maintenance and you will learn to dock the boat under supervision, you will be hands on. I will document your time and training onboard."
This I have a problem with. This sounds like setting up a school for aspiring professionals. Your statement of an "advertisement" is also troubling if it states all that you claim. I have not seen it. I'm going strictly by what he posted here. Like I said before, I think this idea was ill conceived on several levels. And I would certainly not let anybody dock someone else's boat that I'm responsible for. I do a lot of docking instruction and it's amazing how fast and irreversably a bad mistake can be made in close quarters. One thing if it's the person's own boat, but my employer's $2M+ boat? No.
There is good educational value to this thread on a few levels. 1) What not to do and 2) That such a situation is actually a fair way to lessen the costs of bring a boat south, BUT It has to be thought all the way through. There are so many ways to run afoul of the law on this, and so many ways to risk liability that it's more something that an owner would offer to his friends and not something that you go looking to the general public for as a money maker. I'm kind of reminded of when a potential client asked me to take them out in a storm so they could learn to handle rough conditions. I told them that, if we got caught in a storm that's one thing, but I can't intentionally put them in jeopardy.

Charter

Even if he did not advertise the trip but still took $$ for "training" it is a charter, that has been tested before as have most "ghost" agreements. The risk is very high and the owner is putting his vessel and Ins. Co.in harms way.

Charter

Foreign built boats,unless exempted cannot pick up passengers ( or charter) in one US port and transport them to another US port unless the majority of the trip takes place outside US waters and must visit a foreign port .

I have this in writing from US Customs in Seattle

Big difference between a Viking and a Viking SC. One is US built the other is built in England by Princess.

Charter

I stand corrected ...I did not believe that a foreign built vessel could be US flagged..without an exception....I personally cannot US flag my US built , foreign flagged Hatteras.

I would be amazed if the US allowed it's coasting trade to be carried out , port to port by non US hulled vessels...but I am obviously incorrect...I will bow out of the discussion.

That's nice but the offer was not for a bareboat charter and the paper trail to show that is so long and clear that calling it one now is just going to get a few more laughs.

I could not resist includes passengers..

The Merchant Marine Act of 1920 (P.L. 66-261) is a United States Federal statute that regulates maritime commerce in U.S. waters and between U.S. ports.
Section 27, better known as the Jones Act, deals with cabotage (i.e., coastal shipping) and requires that all goods transported by water between U.S. ports be carried in U.S.-flag ships, constructed in the United States, owned by U.S. citizens, and crewed by U.S. citizens and U.S. permanent residents. The purpose of the law is to support the U.S. maritime industry.[1]
In addition, amendments to the Jones Act, known as the Cargo Preference Act (P.L. 83-644), provide permanent legislation for the transportation of waterborne cargoes in U.S.-flag vessels. The Merchant Marine Act of 1920 has been revised a number of times, the most recent and thorough revision was the re-codified version of 2006.[2]

Hi,

I am pretty sure there is a tonnage cut off point for the US Flagging of a foreign built vessel.

A well known yacht called Limitless carries the US Flag and was built in Germany.

Although it is a departure from the OP's post could you share with me why your US Built yacht is excluded from the US register?

US flagging

My US built Hatteras is Cdn Flagged, also, non US residents cannot US flag even a US built vssel.

Any vessel owned by a non US resident above 5 net tons, about 41 ft, is a "foreign vessel"

Could be flagged under US Corporation and Corp. foreign owned. Maybe risky..

There are no size restrictions for flagging except for the fact that you can't document a boat under 5 tons. There is no upper limit.

There are many foreign built ships trading under the US flag. The only issue is those ships cannot be used in coastwise (Jones Act) trade. I have sailed on a lot of them, we carried cargo from a US port to a foreign port and back again but could not transport cargo (or people) between US ports.

But then again, there are exemptions available in certain specific conditions. It is fairly straight forward to get an exemption for a foreign built yacht to get a coastwise exemption to charter as long as some other charter company doesn't file a complaint. Rebuilding a wrecked foreign vessel and putting something like 3 times the salvage value into it will buy you a coastwise document if you are an American citizen.So will buying a boat seized by the feds, that is the source of a lot of the coastal freighters working in the Pacific Northwest.

As far as reflagging a US built boat under a foreign flag, you can do that but then you can't bring it back and obtain a coastwise document. A foreign citizen cannot be the sole owner of a US documented vessel, ownership has to be at least 75 percent US citizen and the foreign 25 percent can't be given any operational control.

Dennis doesn't have to document the boat, there is no law that says you have to document a small pleasure vessel. The State of Washington will make him register it and get a sticker but that has nothing to do with a document or the US government.