With a bareboat charter and an OUPV six pack license, can you have more than six passengers if only one of them pays for the captain?
Ah yes ...Bigfoot, The Loch Ness Monster, and beating the system with a six pack ticket. Some urban myths never die. Is there something the matter with the other OUPV loophole thread you started two weeks ago?
I just keep getting mixed replies and I am obviously a new captain and I cannot tell if my boss is being shady or if I really can drive with twelve people under a bareboat. I just want a clear cut answer. Your answer seems to be a no...?
While you clearly don't like the answers you've been given, are we to assume you're working on Lake of the Ozarks? I have a question then. Why did you just go for an OUPV instead of a Master? Now just to reiterate why we're telling you to talk to a maritime attorney, no one could really give you an answer and guarantee that it's applicable to your situation on the information you've shared. For example, the USCG just made a change to the rules for the USVI which makes their rules different than the rest of the US so charters there are now on equal terms with those in BVI. An attorney would actually want to look at the contract between the charter company and the charterer as well. You perhaps shouldn't have started your first thread looking for "loopholes". Your choice of words, not mine.
This 6 vs; 12 pax question has come up several times in the past, and I've never seen it adequately addressed. I haven't been able to find the CFR covering it clearly, nor have I seen an authoritative and detailed answer about it here. Granted that my old head spins whenever I try to wade through government regulations. I know there has been talk of 12 pax for several years as the U.S. tries to co-ordinate the rule with foreign rules, but I've never seen the citation that allows it. I have some thoughts on the matter (that it deals with bareboats), but I won't state them as they could be misconstrued as facts. So if anyone can cite the specific CFR that says what qualifies an uninspected vessel to carry 12 pax please post it. Jade, On top of the question of whether any U.S. uninspected vessel can carry 12 pax for hire, there's also the question of whether your 6 pack license permits it. Think I'd ask my boss (or a admiralty lawyer) to give me the citation so I could show it to CG in the event I get cited.
the best gig I ever had was a 63' Hatteras MY that chartered... I had 100t and the only thing we kept on top of was the # of life jackets...contract or not ,there was always a reason the C.G. could put us (and about 6 other boats, operators and owners) in jail.... but, boy the $$$$
I can't point you to the correct CFR but this is a link to a flyer published by USCG sector 7 (Miami) that clarifies a number of issues. Published by uscg, good enough for me to sleep at night ! And if boarded, they will want to see both the bareboat contract for the boat as well as the separate crew contract. We were boarded a few months ago and was told that patrol was specifically enforcing charter rules.. They didn't care much about the typical safety, placard, or black water stuff.
Good question... http://www.uscg.mil/d7/sectmiami/pdf/CharterBrochure.pdf As long as insurance covers charter, and as long as the captain is approved by the underwriter, it is not an issue
That's exactly the answer that the OP was looking for Pascal. Thanks. In short, a bare boat charter can carry up to 12 passengers. Any other charter is restricted to 6 passengers unless the vessel is over 100 GT. Over 100 GT their restriction is 12. It should also be noted that the OP can not operate a vessel with passengers for hire over 100 GT or with more than 6 passengers with his 6 pack license. Whether one person pays or it's split between all guests, they're still all passengers for hire, and your 6 pack license is for 6 passengers. I believe you need to get some tonnage for that bare boat. Also, take special note of Pascal's comment in post 7: "And if boarded, they will want to see both the bareboat contract for the boat as well as the separate crew contract. We were boarded a few months ago and was told that patrol was specifically enforcing charter rules.. " Make sure your boss has a very good Chinese wall set up.
A bit more...the official name for the credential is now: National Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessel (OUPV) of Less than 100 GRT. It is not just Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessel so it only applies to less than 100 tons and they by definition are limited to 6 passengers. Make note also of the word "National." This doesn't fit in the STCW definitions and therefore in any international licensing. Countries are allowed to still have National licensing good for the country only. Now all that's before getting into the complicating matters such as Inland vs. Great Lakes vs. Near Coastal. Or special considerations for USVI or Puerto Rico (Example: If one doesn't speak English but does speak Spanish, they may be licensed for waters in the vicinity of Puerto Rico only).
yes we had insurance that said we could charter..however the policy stated that i was to be the licensed operator...not exactly ''bareboat'' ... also the definition back then was that the boat supposedly covered by the OWNER"S policy was not exactly ''bareboat''... a friend who was a lawyer ,well versed in marine law advised my to stop .
If your policy stated that you must be the operator that is definitely NOT bareboat. Good advice from your friend.
true and understood , but even if I was not the operator everyone believed the boat was carrying insurance during the charter.. does not this fact eliminate the term bareboat....and never was there a fuel charge for short charters..
Have been a Charter Captain on the Great Lakes for 36 years have the deepest regard for the USCG. Why play games and try to split atoms with rules -an OUPV - 6 pack license is just that. Don't know your situation there, but I see these guys (USCG) on a regular basis and have been around them for many years, trust me, they know the guys that play games just as well as they know those that play by the rules and operate their vessels in a ship shape fashion at all times. The gamers that take it to the limit are boarded regularly every season and are often subject to a full blown safety inspection, documentation review---even with a current inspection sticker on their port window. Hope you can get this worked out with the owner, but in the end you are the Captain, (your time or tenure as a captain - is meaningless), you are the responsible person. JMO Good luck!