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Looking to buy 70' to 90' Sunseeker/Mangusta...

Discussion in 'Sunseeker Yacht' started by zeus, Sep 5, 2010.

  1. zeus

    zeus New Member

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    Hello Everyone,

    First post so please don't rip it apart.

    Over the last 2 years I have had the fortune of selling up my business in the UK and taking my wife and 2 small children for a new life in a warmer climate of Central Italy on the Adriatic Coast. Following a renovation project we shall shortly be in a position to purchase a Motor Cruiser for use from next spring.
    Despite very limited experience, I am anticipating a 70ft cruiser (Sunseeker/San Lorenzo/Posillipo) although, there does appear to be quit a few larger vessels available at bargain purchase prices. Firstly, I know that a 70 ft plus yacht is probably at the largest spectrum for owner/captain use, although would a Leopard/Mangusta 92ft be considered way off the mark with adequate training?

    For consideration,

    1.3 mill Eu budget

    Our estate is based 20 minutes from the coast and we anticipate using the boat for many weekends for accomodation also as our local marina is in the city of Pescara. May even double up as a city based office (Ok, garden shed so to speak)

    We are approximately 3 and half hours from Hvar (Croatia) our gateway to the Dalmation Coast.

    Expected hours use per annum, 60 -90 hrs.

    Limited Boating Experience, although a 55ft Fairline Squadron was frequently used with friend in the UK.

    I would class myself as a competent responsible person, I have a PPL private helicopter licence, HGV licence, Excavator Licence blah blah blah.

    I have tried to find as much information relating to Leopard/Mangusta Use on this forum however, it does seem quite limited. Any further comments relating to any of the above information provided would be very much appreciated.

    Many Thanks
    Z

    ps, This won't be my one and only post!!!
  2. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    From what you've mentioned. Get yourself a fulltime Captain. A Fulltime Captain should be able to keep up with the maintanence and such on a 70' express like you're mentioning. There is a lot of maintanence involved on a 70' yacht. My family's safety would be my highest concern and it sounds like you are not knowledgable enough to run a 70' as an owner/operater. Get a Captain and each trip you can learn from him, and then 2 years down the road go off on your own.......or not......
  3. rodsteel

    rodsteel Member

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    Charter versus Purchase (for initial exposure to yachting)

    Zeus,

    There is a related discussion going on, on this thread:

    http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/g...on/14306-help-choosing-sub-85-foot-yacht.html

    As recommended on that thread by several posters, I think in your case, some judicial use of crewed, week-end charters would, initially, be a more cost-effective use of your time and funds (especially during the up-coming, off-season, period, since you live close to the yachting centers). Charters provide an optimum way to sample many different styles of yachting (e.g., go-fast boats versus comfortable-cruisers versus passage-makers).

    Enjoy,

    Rod
  4. super termoli

    super termoli New Member

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    From my experience, 70' is really the size limit for an owner-operator. With a help of a skilled and versatile deckhand, it is possible but there is a special philosophy to it. You must be skilled and experienced and you must also be ready to get your hands dirty. If this will be your first yacht however, get a full-time professional captain, it will turn out to be cheaper as a yacht which is regularly pampered by a good captain will have lower maintenance costs. In any case, you will need help and this has nothing to do with your skills, it's just that a 70' yacht is a lot of work if you want to keep her in shape, so you might as well make it a captain, if you have the means make your life easier.

    Above that, forget it. Especially if you go to 90+ feet, you will not only need a captain but also at least another crewmember during the season when you are intensively using the boat.

    Regarding your choice of boat, I would not put Sunseekers in the same category as Sanlorenzo or Posillipo, the latter two are higher quality. But this is just my opinion. Mangusta/Leopard are different beasts again, they are open boats and in my opinion they are less comfortable but faster so perhaps better suited for shorter cruises. They are very nicely finished boats but in terms of seakeeping I've seen better. Finally, with a budget of € 1.3 million it's going to be difficult to find a Mangusta 92, prices have fallen but not that much. However, you can easily find a nice Sanlorenzo 72, Posillipo 70 or if you decide to go for the fast open type, a Mangusta 80 or an older Leopard 27 are within your reach...
  5. zeus

    zeus New Member

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    Looking to Buy 70' to 90'

    Many thanks for the responses to date. As expected, I have to agree with the general opinion that a full time captain be required for at least the first two seasons.

    Super termoli, Agree that San Lorenzo and Posillipo are to a better finish than the Sunseeker, its just a new Manhattan 70 has arrived in our marina, seems a cut above other Manhattan's of late, however, living in Italy I would prefer an Italian built vessel.

    Finally, Considering its anticipated use (as noted above) would the running costs differ enormously between a Mangusta 92 and the San Lorenzo 72(Anything with the words Rolls Royce related, can put one off, especially in this sector)?

    Thanks to Capt J and rodsteel, your comments have been noted and certainly will be considered now the closed season is upon us. Interesting times ahead.

    Will of course keep you posted.

    Z
  6. super termoli

    super termoli New Member

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    Yes, there will be a difference. A Mangusta 92 will have 16-cylinder MTU power and as you rightly pointed out, KaMewa-Rolls Royce waterjets. This is going to be more expensive to maintain than a 70' flybridge yacht like the Sanlorenzo which will have smaller engines and shaft drives. It will likely also have MAN or CAT power whose maintenance is, in my experience at least, cheaper than MTU.

    In terms of fuel consumption, the difference is not so clear cut. I have experience with AB Yachts which also have relatively large engines and waterjet propulsion. And I have found that in terms of specific consumptions (liters per mile) they are more efficient than conventional shaft and prop driven boats. They burn more fuel but at the same time are more than proportionally faster...
  7. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    In that list Sunseeker is definitly at the bottom for what is construction quality and seakeeping. If you want the same modern looks to Sunseeker and in my experience better seakeeping put Azimut on that list too.

    Sanlorenzo is definitly a cut above the rest, followed by Overmarine Mangusta, and Possilipo. I had the fortune to visit the Possilipo yard in better times in 2008 and those yachts are amazing builds.

    For Sanlorenzo style yachts put also Maiora in that list and a Falcon (80 feet plus) in the bigger sizes.
    I see as the Possillipo and Ferretti about in between lookers between the modernity of a Sunseeker and the classic firm looks of Sanlorenzo
    For Sunseeker style yachts put Azimut, Aicon, Fairline, Princess, and the low volume builder (3 to 5 bpy) from Venice VZ which is super high quality.
    For Mangusta style, put Leopard (which I prefare for seakeeping), Pershing (the more commerical brand) AB Yachts (another good seakeeper), and Italcraft (today owned by Rizzardi). The 70 Drago has a military hull derived from Sonny Levi sketches which apart fast is amazing in rough water.

    As for running costs you cannot compare a Sanlorenzo 72 to those of a Mangusta 92. An SL 72 or 70 Technema can be compared to a Mangusta 72 which have more or less the same engines. The Mangusta will have less cabin spaces (but not by much Mangustas are spacious), but more exterior spaces I am a big lover of opens personally and feel as a single handed they are easy to do it alone, altough most Mangustas as do similar Pershings of the size do have surface drives which are not so easy, altough with them you do sade in fuel costs.
    By your budget I suspect you are looking for used so the normal engines on all these boats are MAN 1300 and more modern will have common rail 1550hp. Some will have Cats or MTU of similar HP but in most cases it will be the MAN.
  8. zeus

    zeus New Member

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    Liam,

    Have to agree with you on what I have seen so far. The San Lorenzo does appear to be much better quality than the Sunseeker, I have not had the chance to view a Posillipo as yet as the asking price is slightly more than the Mangusta and San Lorenzo albeit a few years newer 2005/6.

    Considering, I have been offered a 92ft Mangusta for a similar price and it has been one of my favourites for a few years now, I am inclined to be more realistic and realize that it may be a bit grown up for me at this point. I would really like to run a vessel for quit a bit less than 100k eu a year (without FT captain), and I think the SL72 or maybe even a 62 as per another private poster mentioned yesterday, may suit my pocket better.

    Further comments please!!!
  9. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    So 60 to 70 feet is very good and a one crew will just be needed to maintain the boat spot less and help in the mooring.
    I also forget Uniesse in that list which is also a lovely boat, and has in my experience the best seakeeping for this class, along with a very high attention to detail. I think their 65 is amazing. It also offers a fourth cabin which is rare to find in that size. Look also at the VZ 18, 64 or 68 both good lookers and seakeepers.
    You might also check a 65 Technema if three cabins are enough for you, along with the Ferretti 630 which measures 66 feet. Ferretti will always have some unique touches to their boats like the astern galley.
  10. MaxPower

    MaxPower Senior Member

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    At Sea ... Aahhh ...
    absolutely ... a superb boat ... and put together very well.
  11. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Including the fact that all of the steering parts and aeronautic hose ends in the salty lazarette are made out of mild steel, when they should be stainless steel?
  12. Liam

    Liam Senior Member

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    I don't think is the only one made of mild steel, but yes all engine room parts are of mild steel. Which is a bit a pity considering the price tag Ferretti have. Still but there engine rooms compared to EU builds and other production builders are much better planned and easyier to do maintainence.

    The salty problem used to be from air intakes on old Ferretti, I used to take care of a 53 in the late nineties and the captain on which we sea trialled a sister ship prior to purchase told us of this problem and during build Ferretti made a modification and panel from inside which stops the water from coming in. I know also of 57 owners who did this. To my knowledge the new ones have solved the problems but may be MaxPower can tell us more. The most recent Ferretti models I handled where a 590 in Force 5 seas very impressed, and a 550 in flat seas.
  13. MaxPower

    MaxPower Senior Member

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    quite honestly, i'm a bit surprised to hear this ... my understanding was that they do use SS 316(?) or is it 318? not sure on the number ...
  14. Capt J

    Capt J Senior Member

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    Not on a 2005 59' Feretti FB I ran a few times