Hull Paint: Alexseal or Awlgrip

Hi,

I would say stay well clear of AwlGrip topcoats these days owing to their now well known and poorly addressed problems.

Alexseal doesn't seem to be beset by the same problems and there is always DuPont who seem to be putting out a great product with good gloss and good deep clear image reflection.

I have to agree with K1W1, at this point steer clear of Awlgrip. Alexseal seems to be far superior.

TK-F430 wrote:

Would I be wrong in thinking that response was laced with an important dose of sarcasm...?!

You've read the original question, and the 2 responses (so far).

One says:

.

Another says:

.

But neither K1W1 or m2m have bothered to explain why...?!

I can count on the fingers of 1 single hand all the superyachts I've come across in the past 10 years which use Alexseal paints (M/Y MARCO POLO springs to mind) for their hull / super-structure regularly, and use the same hand for those I've come across using Du Pont / Sterling / JOTUN or whatever other brand coatings. But I would need to be an octopus (with as many fingers/toes on each leg/arm etc.) to count all the superyachts that continue to use AWLGRIP paints.

I cannot offer any reasonable argument for/against using any of the above-mentioned brands of marine coatings. However, about 5 years ago, I bought an expensive HP (HEWLETT-PACKARD) multi-function printer/fax/copier/scanner, and had to "dump it" when it stopped working 1 month short of the 2 year HP warranty. I was offered a direct-replacement "under warranty" with a 3 month guarantee. I preferred to buy another printer, the CANON MP-780, which has performed faultlessly for almost 4 years now...?! I shall never, ever, buy another HP product in view of my personal experience, after dealing with HP support...?!

Unless K1W1 or m2m are willing to recount their own experiences concerning (in this case, specifically AWLGRIP products, but it could be anything else in future), "simply recommending" that someone posting a request for advice here receives an ambigious reply that they should "steer clear of 1 manufacturer or another" could be regarded as potentially damaging to YachtForums. By all means, "say your piece", but provide supporting documentation and/or recounts of "1st hand experiences". Instead of what you're doing: "dumping" your own bad experiences and exposing Carl and YachtForums to potential litigation.

So, let's start anew...

Dear TK-F430,

US Paints (AWLGRIP) coatings are extensively used on most superyachts today. I don't know whether Awlgrip paints are more or less environmentally-friendly, or more effective in a marine environment compared to the products of other manufacturers. I've had the pleasure of supplying Alexseal paints to a 45m yacht here in the south of France in 2009. There was a long delay (of eventually 6 weeks) before the yacht's complete order was delivered aboard. There is a French distributor for Alexseal in France, but they're merely agents, not holding any stocks, all supplies were shipped from their facility in Germany, awaiting delivery from USA. Which is why I don't believe that Alexseal hold any real stocks in Europe, leading to very long delivery delays. And if they haven't yet made a serious investment in establishing a solid European distribution base, that may be because they don't (as yet anyway) have a sufficiently important customer base in Europe to make it worthwhile...?! Comparatively, AWLGRIP paints are pretty-much well-distributed across all the continents and within the major superyacht centres. Meaning, you could walk into almost any yacht chandler in Italy, order a quart of "Snow white base" + accessories, and be assured of delivery within a few days. Or Greece, or Turkey etc...?!

Before painting any yacht perhaps, you should ask questions about the level of expertise required to apply (and repair) these coatings and where the product is available worldwide (if you cruise that far afield...). Do you really need any "high-performance" paint job anyway? Only, the 1st yacht I ever worked aboard, well, we used a 1 component satin-finished white paint on the hull and super-structure of the 40m. The crew would take a week or thereabouts sanding the whole yacht at the beginning of the season, and apply 1 coat of the STOPPANI polyurethane (being a satin-finish also mean't that any imperfections were much less noticeable, no "professional applicators at great expoense" were involved) - the crew did it all (NB. This particular yacht didn't charter, so the full-time crew did it all for the owner who used the yacht exclusively during 2 months each summer). That was 1985/6, so the usual yacht brokers / managers and surveyors, so common in our working lives today, weren't there...?!

Back in the early '90s, I persuaded the Turkish owner (and German brothel- keeper) and his skipper, of a 16m Turkish traditional gulet to invest in a complete AWLGRIP coating system after taking the whole hull / supersture back to bare wood. What with the costs of buying the necessary air compressor, spray application accessories etc., and the shipyard space rental, I believe that the total bill exceeded the actual value of a "16m Turkish gulet" at the time.

But (thankfully...) the owner was very pleased with the result. Especially as the summer season went by - the AWLGRIP primers / LW filler spray-applied appeared to be doing its' job (compared to previous years, when the pine-hull would already have been expressing itself by huge cracks in the painted (lower-hull) and varnished (upper-hull) surfaces. At the end of the summer, the hull looked as good as new. No untoward cracks due to the natural tendency of pine to expand / contract - the filler application appeared to hold well. The bright yellow / blue-finished 2 component AWLGRIP on the lower-hull, together with the AWLBRITE finished varnished upper-hull appeared to be completely intact. As any serious yacht-broker today, who has ever dealt with a Turkish "'German-brothel owning" client will obviously admit to: it ain't always easy or straight-forward. But fortune shined upon me that year, and when this gulet showed up in French-waters the following year, the owner invited me aboard for aperitives, so happy was he about the AWLGRIP finish he'd paid so much for...?!

After all these years, do you really believe I would today, suggest that my original advice to go with the AWLGRIP system, was perhaps erroneous? If you own several German brothels, and you're Turkish, when do you really retire...?! Do you still keep friendly with your colleagues in Marseille...?!

Hi,

Airship - I would suggest that if you are so sure that AWLGRIP have no problems you call the Global Head Ken Hickling and ask him what they are doing about all the problems he says Awl Grip have no idea how to address.

AwlGrip used to be an excellent paint , they changed the formula to a more environmentally friendly one and the problems started.

The biggest and most noticeable problem today is the DOI -Distinction of Image.

The paint goes on and looks good, within approx 14 days the whole finish takes on a mottled appearance and any image reflections look like they are being viewed through a heat haze in a good one and can't be seen at all in bad one.

This for once is not seen as an applicators problem, the ball is firmly in AwlGrips court, they do not deny it but do not seem to be willing or able to do anything about it.

If there is a litigation issue I have access to documentation, minutes of meetings, photos and test panels with these problems clearly shown. These were collected not for use here but for one of my clients so they will not be released to the general public.

I am constantly up close to both paint systems on various yachts, motor and sail. In my opinion the Alexseal colours look deeper and richer, however many painters are just so used to shooting Awlgrip you have to pick your team wisely.
All the above points are valid and typical of the current issues with paint, it invokes strong opinions and in some cases legal disputes, such is the complexity of the product.
Good luck.

Paint

Was informed once by a very highly placed civil servant that to let current regulations stay unchanged would lead to extinction of the service and as such, constant change is the norm, good bad or otherwise, in fact sometimes bad is preferred as it leads to more work for the service thus ensuring continuing employment, now I do not mean that all regs are evil but is does seem we are continually besieged by change which seems to create more problems than cures. My informant tells me that "safety of the public" is their mandate thus leading to added and modified laws and regs.

Sounds like a civil servant or even more like a politician.

paints continued

Has anybody ever used so-called 'moisture cured urethanes' (mcu) for the superstructure of a yacht? They are used a lot on steel structures in coastal environments in the Netherlands. The advance is that it's a one-component system so less qualified workers can do the job and secondly, in humid, tropical environments, the high humidity actually helps curing the paint instead of delaying it or making painting simply impossible.

For the underwater hull I was also recommend by the manufacturer (MCU Coatings in Belgium) to use Neosil, a hardcoat silicon-based fouling release product (from Holland).

Problem is, very few yachts seem to use Neosil ( (even less than Alexeal ) and I don't want to be the guinnee pig.

So, any people with experience with mcu coatings and/or Neosil?

Hi to all!
And to the above comments the following:
@pdx1000 - all polyurethanes are to an extent moisture curing. They require an amount of moisture to have the proper flow, therefore giving them a smooth finish (at least as possible!).
All coatings do have (if sprayed in the proper DFT) some structure, but PU coatings, tend to have an Orange Peel, if sprayed in an environment which is to dry!

To all others (especially Airship!).
Yes, Awlgrip was the choice, with exclamation on WAS.
At the moment, there are various problems with the coating system of Awlgrip, which have been noticed (and not only by K1W1).
About 5 years back, they changed something in the recipe and there were problems with pinholes and running of the coating in normal DFT shoots in certain colors.
It seems that they fixed that, and changed something in the Curing agent (which is used in both the G+H Line and the Awlcraft 2000).
This then seem to lead in disturbances in the DOI, which gave the surface a moire effect (making straight edges jagged!).
Working with many yachts, I'm seeing many owners of bigger yachts, in both Refit and New Builds changing to either Alexseal or DuPont.

In my opinion Alexseal has a uneasy surface with some Orange Peel, that seems to stay and make the surface look busy!!!

DuPont at the moment has a coating system which has been on the market unchanged for 5 years, is polishable, and holds the gloss (guaranteed!) of over 80 for 3 years. My last check of a 2 YO New Build of DuPont was average of 90 GU.

International Perfection also has a good coating system, which has a good gloss retention, but, in my opinion not quite the deepness.

So, to sum up. At the moment, I would suggest to any owner/captain either the DuPont or International Perfection system.

If someone has more experiance with the coatings as I do, please don't hesitate to comment.

Hi Tom and welcome to YF. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience. For anyone reading this thread, Tom represents one more example of the extreme expertise we are fortunate to attract on YF. This gent has forgotten more about paint than DuPont!

He's also an excellent translator! Thanks again Tom.

Excellent information. Applicability to steel?

Judy

Judy,If I understand it correctly you ask whether this is applicable to steel or not?
yes,it is ..we have been applying on 3 vessels with Steel Hull,and aluminium spstrc.this system.

Med - thanks for the response, but I'm not sure of which product you're referring.

I need a bit of clarification please. For summary from the opinions offered, AwlGrip is a thumbs down; AlexSeal is a thumbs up; DuPont is a preference; International Perfection is an option.

Which of these systems are recommended for a steel hull? Which are recommended for an aluminum superstructure?

And thanks, guys, this is a nick-of-tiime thread ;-)

Judy

Judy,

Im talking about Dupont Imron Topgloss system that has been applied on 3 steel hull and alu spstrct., and it worked quite well.

if you need more info please PM me

Judy--

There was a certain builder of steel expedition boats near Mobile that had serious problems with Awlgrip a year or so ago. Yeah, you-know-who.

On the positive side, I have taken a close look at numerous newly-painted boats (mostly 2000-2001 Vikings)that came out of the American yard in Stuart; the resultant mirror-like finishes were stunning.
Dunno what product(s) they were using, but a quick phone call will get you that info.

A couple of years ago I toured the Hatteras factory, and if I remember correctly, they use Alexseal. Hatteras is one of the few production builders who paint all of their boats, except for the 60 motor yacht. Not sure when they started using Alexseal, but their are enough Hatteras' around you may find an owner who could give their opinion.

I have not heard of Hatteras Yachts using Alexseal, I'm not saying it is not true. When I was at the factory they were using Awlgrip which was back in 2004. But I have never heard of them changing. I had one issue with Awlgrip where a reputable painter sprayed the same boat 3 times with Awlgrip and each time it had horrible orange peel. I cannot say if it was the paint or the painter. This was in 2007. I had another one painted around then also with Awlcraft 2000 that still looks beautiful, the same color dark blue.

On another note. I have taken care of a few yachts that were painted with Imron, and they still look great and one of them is going on 12 years. I haven't seen Imron widely used in the Yachting industry, only here and there. But have never seen a bad Imron job, or not seen it last the test of time.

Hatteras has been using Alexseal since about 2005 or 2006. According to the Alexseal website, Hatteras and Westport shoot their paint on their new builds.